Could This Be Sun Gold OP

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

I've been growing out a volunteer that came up in my garden in 2010. It has always been a "so so" tasting cherry size that had the colors, but not that finishing sweetness we all love. This year, my volunteer seeds came up with a much larger fruit and I'm not sure why, but this time the taste is at least as good as the Sungold F1 grown from commercial seeds.

My main point here is that the taste is in this one. It has me both excited and hoping that the next growout will be just as good tasting. Also, it is larger than the original Sungold F1. Pictured below are the volunteer followed by two of the Sungold F1 fruits (including the largest one I could find of the Sungold F1). Then, there is the Volunteer with the largest Sungold F1 and a plastic ruler. The last picture is of a one gallon ice cream bucket with both in it.

People have been trying for years to create an OP version of Sungold F1. I've been chewing on this "situation" for a couple of weeks now. I want this to be the real deal, but I also want to proceed with caution (The proof is in the pudding).

I'd like to hear your thoughts, opinions, and suggestions.

Labradors2 · July 30, 2015

Well done Ted! I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers all clamouring to help you grow out Maiden's (Sun)Gold!

Linda

Cole_Robbie · July 30, 2015

Nice. I have a large orange cherry that came to me labelled "Ambrosia." But it does not have Sungold sweetness.

**carolyn137** · July 30, 2015

Ted, there are four different OP versions of Sungold F1 3 developed by Reinhard Kraft in Germany and I know he's still working with it b'c he asked if I could get some seeds of the F1 and send them to him b'c they are so expensive in Germany.

I thought Tania might have them all together but she doesn't, and I know I've listed them here at Tville many times, so first, Tania's link:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sungold_Select

from memory there's

Sungold 1
Sungold 11
Sungold Select
Big Sungold Select.

The last one was a catastrophe. It was sent to Manfred Hahm who sent it to Reinhard who sent seeds to Brad Gates and my self and many got all different colors from its ince Brad had offered it and I did too in a seed offer.

With volunteers from Sungold F1 most folks get red fruited plants and that b'c there are red genes in the DNA that determine the typical long truss trait of most cherry varieties.

Carolyn

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

Container Ted,

It is not an OP, in the sense that it is not yet true-breeding. It is most likely an F2 that grew from a seed from last year's plants, or an F3 if it grew from an F2 you had growing last year.

What has happened is that you seem to have the genes for the flavor and color aligned in the way you want them. Hopefully the great flavor is not due to the stress of being a volunteer. Stress has a way of fooling us, because the neglected plant often produces the tastiest tomatoes.

Only time will tell if you can keep selecting for the flavor and color (and size) you want. The only way to maximize the likelihood of success is to grow out many plants as you can next year, from seeds saved from the plant you like. Most of them will likely be disappointing, but you may find some that are still top-notch.

Then you will have to select again for 3 or 4 more generations (maybe more) before you will know if you will be successful.

Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you will be able to get to F7 with a stabilized OP that people like as well as Sungold F1. But there is definitely high reward associated with the high risk that you get to the end with the magical Sungold OP everyone wants.

Decided to put my post here, since all other responses are here, and not in the duplicate thread.

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

I would not send it out yet (note what happened when still-segregating lines were sent out by Carolyn -- as discussed in her post above).

Remember, the expectations will be very high for an OP Sungold, and while you may be able to re-capture the magic in a subset of the plants you grow in the next generation, the likelihood is that many other folks will be disappointed in the one plant they grow out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labradors2

Well done Ted! I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers all clamouring to help you grow out Maiden's (Sun)Gold!

Linda

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

Yes, Carolyn. I understand all of that. I've grown the original F1, the Sungold Select, and the Big Sungold select. None of those had the taste, and like you said, Big Sungold Select was a huge disaster.

I grew Sungold F1 from commercial seeds and it was just as advertised. Sweet, beautiful orange colors, and large plants that threw out truss after truss of fruit. Then, in the same place in my garden, in 2011, I got a volunteer that had fruit that looked right, but the taste wasn't there. It was very tart and not much to talk about. So, I have grown it every year since, including 2013 when the cattle destroyed most of my garden. Each year, I've saved seed from it even in the years when I didn't actually taste a bunch of them. They were always the right size and had the right colors when ripening. But the taste just didn't have the sweetness of the commercial plant.

Each year, I also grew Sungold F1 from commercial seed to compare with the volunteer. Each year, everything was the same except for the taste. This year the differences are dramatic. The color and the color progression is the same, but the size is larger and the taste is there. It's like a super-sized Sungold. I have Sungold F1 Hybrid which I'm using to compare. The taste is the same.

I put this post here to see if someone else has seen these larger fruits. I have no explanation for the larger size, but I can tell you that I have two plants and there is another at my brother's place. They were planted before any other indicators surfaced. Before either of us got the first fruit set. Right now, I am hopeful with a healthy dose of disbelief, and a drop or two of intense hope that this is gonna repeat.

You can see my dilemna. I've come here to see what our Tomatoville village can add.

So, has anyone else gotten these larger fruits? And, if so, how did they taste? Were the plants from commercial seed or ?????

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

Thanks, Fred. This year the three plants are actually F5 and will produce F6 seed. I agree that I must repeat this year's results. I posted this to see if anyone else has had anything similar happen - especially larger fruit. This may go nowhere, but the importance of this impels me to ask these questions. If I have stumbled upon the "panacea", then I want to know that. If it is a fluke, then I want to be able to evaluate and state that as well.

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

Well, that was dumb of me. I missed the whole "volunteer in 2010" thing.

If 3 plants in F5 were all top notch, I think sending it to a few friends could be very useful. And they probably won't be disappointed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Thanks, Fred. This year the three plants are actually F5 and will produce F6 seed. I agree that I must repeat this year's results. I posted this to see if anyone else has had anything similar happen - especially larger fruit. This may go nowhere, but the importance of this impels me to ask these questions. If I have stumbled upon the "panacea", then I want to know that. If it is a fluke, then I want to be able to evaluate and state that as well.

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

You show fruits of different sizes. Are the sizes associated with different plants, or are the various sizes found on all 3 plants?

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

Fred, that picture was put there to inspire your exact response. That picture contains about half regular Sungold F1 Hybrid fruit and half my F5 larger fruit. You have helped me in that you couldn't really tell that there was a difference when they are all thrown together.

The smaller fruits are the hybrid F1's. The larger fruit are the F5's.

bower · July 30, 2015

This is very intriguing for a person with little experience in how complex genetics pan out through the generations.... I would have thought that F5's would be more similar to the F4 parent but I guess that's not the case.

That makes me wonder, at what generation should we expect to select for a stable size or taste profile? I know both are very complex traits with a lot of genes involved, so I guess radical departures from the previous generation are not that uncommon..

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

Bower, I'm not any kind of geneticist. I'm just a tomato grower that likes to make juice for the winter. But, I come from a long history of troubleshooting electronics and evaluating computer software code. I guess I apply some of these evaluating skills to my gardening. I think the "real" experts here have inspired me toward that. I know that if I observe and record objectively, that there may be an expert out there who can help me make sense of what I've encountered. In that perfect scenario, i learn new things. I can remember back in 2011 when I made the decision to save a few seeds from the volunteer, I said to myself that it was probably useless, but I had the time and the inclination to do it, so why not?

Each year, I planted the previous generation and couldn't really justify using the garden space to myself or my family. But there was a "nudge" in the back of my brain that said I should just do it and move on. Each year, I encountered the same disapointment as the year before. But there was something my insatiable curiosity just couldn't be denied. So, I would plant again, etc.

I really wasn't expecting anything except the usual results. So, this is both rewarding for my perserverance, and exciting for the possibilities.

Let's all hope this pans out.

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

That's good then. Same color, but uniformly larger size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Fred, that picture was put there to inspire your exact response. That picture contains about half regular Sungold F1 Hybrid fruit and half my F5 larger fruit. You have helped me in that you couldn't really tell that there was a difference when they are all thrown together.

The smaller fruits are the hybrid F1's. The larger fruit are the F5's.

**carolyn137** · July 30, 2015

Some of you may find this link interesting.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=19281

And I have read from more than one person the scent of the Sungold F1 foliage is very closely linked to Sungold taste and trying to keep them together when making selections that lead to genetic segregation has obviously been difficult.

I also googled and found the twitter acct of Keith Mueller and found references to Fred's varieties, Craig L commenting on baseball scores and so much more . The first time I was there there was a small picture on the left and that brought you to the dialogue but when I went back to get it now the picture was a clickable one to Keith's Online Tomato Vine, so maybe those pictures rotate.

Keith got his MS degree with Dr, Randy Gardner at NCSU at Fletcher, what wonderful trainingg from Randy, and Keith's wife's family don't live that far from Craig L in Raleigh so there you go.

If you haven't been to Keith's website you MUST GO and Keith knows more tomato genetics than almost anyone else I know of. You may know of some of the varieties he's bred such as Purple haze F1, Liz Birt, well let me fetch the link to his website where he has described them and what he's working on now,and check out the section on how to make crosses and what segregation is all about and how many gens it takes to get genetic stability, and so much more.

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/

Carolyn

July 30, 2015	#4
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Ted, there are four different OP versions of Sungold F1 3 developed by Reinhard Kraft in Germany and I know he's still working with it b'c he asked if I could get some seeds of the F1 and send them to him b'c they are so expensive in Germany. I thought Tania might have them all together but she doesn't, and I know I've listed them here at Tville many times, so first, Tania's link: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sungold_Select from memory there's Sungold 1 Sungold 11 Sungold Select Big Sungold Select. The last one was a catastrophe. It was sent to Manfred Hahm who sent it to Reinhard who sent seeds to Brad Gates and my self and many got all different colors from its ince Brad had offered it and I did too in a seed offer. With volunteers from Sungold F1 most folks get red fruited plants and that b'c there are red genes in the DNA that determine the typical long truss trait of most cherry varieties. Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

July 30, 2015	#7
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Yes, Carolyn. I understand all of that. I've grown the original F1, the Sungold Select, and the Big Sungold select. None of those had the taste, and like you said, Big Sungold Select was a huge disaster. I grew Sungold F1 from commercial seeds and it was just as advertised. Sweet, beautiful orange colors, and large plants that threw out truss after truss of fruit. Then, in the same place in my garden, in 2011, I got a volunteer that had fruit that looked right, but the taste wasn't there. It was very tart and not much to talk about. So, I have grown it every year since, including 2013 when the cattle destroyed most of my garden. Each year, I've saved seed from it even in the years when I didn't actually taste a bunch of them. They were always the right size and had the right colors when ripening. But the taste just didn't have the sweetness of the commercial plant. Each year, I also grew Sungold F1 from commercial seed to compare with the volunteer. Each year, everything was the same except for the taste. This year the differences are dramatic. The color and the color progression is the same, but the size is larger and the taste is there. It's like a super-sized Sungold. I have Sungold F1 Hybrid which I'm using to compare. The taste is the same. I put this post here to see if someone else has seen these larger fruits. I have no explanation for the larger size, but I can tell you that I have two plants and there is another at my brother's place. They were planted before any other indicators surfaced. Before either of us got the first fruit set. Right now, I am hopeful with a healthy dose of disbelief, and a drop or two of intense hope that this is gonna repeat. You can see my dilemna. I've come here to see what our Tomatoville village can add. So, has anyone else gotten these larger fruits? And, if so, how did they taste? Were the plants from commercial seed or ????? __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 30, 2015	#8
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Thanks, Fred. This year the three plants are actually F5 and will produce F6 seed. I agree that I must repeat this year's results. I posted this to see if anyone else has had anything similar happen - especially larger fruit. This may go nowhere, but the importance of this impels me to ask these questions. If I have stumbled upon the "panacea", then I want to know that. If it is a fluke, then I want to be able to evaluate and state that as well. __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 30, 2015	#11
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Fred, that picture was put there to inspire your exact response. That picture contains about half regular Sungold F1 Hybrid fruit and half my F5 larger fruit. You have helped me in that you couldn't really tell that there was a difference when they are all thrown together. The smaller fruits are the hybrid F1's. The larger fruit are the F5's. __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 30, 2015	#13
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Bower, I'm not any kind of geneticist. I'm just a tomato grower that likes to make juice for the winter. But, I come from a long history of troubleshooting electronics and evaluating computer software code. I guess I apply some of these evaluating skills to my gardening. I think the "real" experts here have inspired me toward that. I know that if I observe and record objectively, that there may be an expert out there who can help me make sense of what I've encountered. In that perfect scenario, i learn new things. I can remember back in 2011 when I made the decision to save a few seeds from the volunteer, I said to myself that it was probably useless, but I had the time and the inclination to do it, so why not? Each year, I planted the previous generation and couldn't really justify using the garden space to myself or my family. But there was a "nudge" in the back of my brain that said I should just do it and move on. Each year, I encountered the same disapointment as the year before. But there was something my insatiable curiosity just couldn't be denied. So, I would plant again, etc. I really wasn't expecting anything except the usual results. So, this is both rewarding for my perserverance, and exciting for the possibilities. Let's all hope this pans out. __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 30, 2015	#2
Labradors2 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ontario Posts: 3,891	Well done Ted! I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers all clamouring to help you grow out Maiden's (Sun)Gold! Linda

July 30, 2015	#3
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	Nice. I have a large orange cherry that came to me labelled "Ambrosia." But it does not have Sungold sweetness.

July 30, 2015	#5
Fred Hempel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sunol, CA Posts: 2,723	Container Ted, It is not an OP, in the sense that it is not yet true-breeding. It is most likely an F2 that grew from a seed from last year's plants, or an F3 if it grew from an F2 you had growing last year. What has happened is that you seem to have the genes for the flavor and color aligned in the way you want them. Hopefully the great flavor is not due to the stress of being a volunteer. Stress has a way of fooling us, because the neglected plant often produces the tastiest tomatoes. Only time will tell if you can keep selecting for the flavor and color (and size) you want. The only way to maximize the likelihood of success is to grow out many plants as you can next year, from seeds saved from the plant you like. Most of them will likely be disappointing, but you may find some that are still top-notch. Then you will have to select again for 3 or 4 more generations (maybe more) before you will know if you will be successful. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you will be able to get to F7 with a stabilized OP that people like as well as Sungold F1. But there is definitely high reward associated with the high risk that you get to the end with the magical Sungold OP everyone wants. Decided to put my post here, since all other responses are here, and not in the duplicate thread.

July 30, 2015	#12
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	This is very intriguing for a person with little experience in how complex genetics pan out through the generations.... I would have thought that F5's would be more similar to the F4 parent but I guess that's not the case. That makes me wonder, at what generation should we expect to select for a stable size or taste profile? I know both are very complex traits with a lot of genes involved, so I guess radical departures from the previous generation are not that uncommon..