Comparisons: Spudakee, Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe

sjamesNorway · February 3, 2016

This is a continuation from a thread that some of us posted in at idigmygarden, while Tomatoville was down, titled "The Classics". I have also posted a similar question in "The Versus Thread" here, but it seems to be lost there. I'm mostly looking for comparisons between two or all three varieties by those who've grown them together in the same season.

Steve

**carolyn137** · February 3, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

This is a continuation from a thread that some of us posted in at idigmygarden, while Tomatoville was down, titled "The Classics". I have also posted a similar question in "The Versus Thread" here, but it seems to be lost there. I'm mostly looking for comparisons between two or all three varieties by those who've grown them together in the same season.

Steve

Steve, either you or me could fetch that thread from idig to here if that would save you time and all you wrote there. Your choice,

But why not make it CP four ways and add Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf.?

Carolyn

sjamesNorway · February 3, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Steve, either you or me could fetch that thread from idig to here if that would save you time and all you wrote there. Your choice,

But why not make it CP four ways and add Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf.?

Carolyn

Yes, of course Carolyn, why didn't I think of that! Here's "The Classics" thread:

http://www.idigmygarden.com/forums/s...light=Classics

And I agree with the 4-way comparisons. Let's add Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf.

Steve

JLJ_ · February 3, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

This is a continuation from a thread that some of us posted in at idigmygarden, while Tomatoville was down, titled "The Classics". I have also posted a similar question in "The Versus Thread" here, but it seems to be lost there. I'm mostly looking for comparisons between two or all three varieties by those who've grown them together in the same season.

Steve

I got your PM about comparisons -- thanks for taking the time. I think this thread is a good idea -- maybe good to post about it at idig, too, and to add any info you have or find to it periodically, so that the thread stays visible until later in the season when there might be additional info.

I'm planning to have a section this year with several Indian Stripe variations, plus Daniel Burson and Margaret Curtain -- the first as an IS relative and the second as one often perceived as IS similar. Don't think I'll include Cherokee Purple this year, and haven't seed for Spudakee, but based on what you've found it certainly seems as if it warrants being included in comparisons whenever that works out -- and I've seen a number of credible reports in the past of generally good performance by Spudakee -- just not much of the "same year comparison" type information.

**carolyn137** · February 3, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLJ_

I got your PM about comparisons -- thanks for taking the time. I think this thread is a good idea -- maybe good to post about it at idig, too, and to add any info you have or find to it periodically, so that the thread stays visible until later in the season when there might be additional info.

I'm planning to have a section this year with several Indian Stripe variations, plus Daniel Burson and Margaret Curtain -- the first as an IS relative and the second as one often perceived as IS similar. Don't think I'll include Cherokee Purple this year, and haven't seed for Spudakee, but based on what you've found it certainly seems as if it warrants being included in comparisons whenever that works out -- and I've seen a number of credible reports in the past of generally good performance by Spudakee -- just not much of the "same year comparison" type information.

And of course I'll be interestged in your iS variations since I was the first to get it from Donna Nelson and spread it around and am also aware that it was called Indian Zebra by Travis, who finally stopped doing that and said he would call it Indian Stripe, and for that I was very glad.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Indian_Stripe

Carolyn, and I can't begin to tell you how many threads here and also at idig about the initial IS/IZ issue,

Gardeneer · February 3, 2016

I have no current experience to share relatin to the topic. But I will grow a 4-way comparison this year, to find it first hand.

(1) CP, (2) IS (RL), (3) BLACK f TULA, (4) BLACK SEA MAN

I can already tell you than BFT was better than CP in my garden last year, production wise, taste being similar. But I am growing CP to check it vs IS.
Come August, I can do a review.

Gardeneer

Linda10 · February 3, 2016

This is my year for growing out my favorite blacks plus many new to me. I won't be comparing Cherokee Purple because it has never done very well here. I'll try to report back here later.

travis · February 3, 2016

Cherokee Purple: Classic. Initiated the "heirloom" tomato movement for many folks because it was one of the first purples to become widely available as a bedding transplant from Bonnie and Chef Jeff Heirlooms.
Plant growth habit can be a bit variable from seed source to seed source, with some examples very stout, stubby, and almost determinate in pattern, and others ranging wildly up and over top of wire cages. Superior sweet, complex, deep flavor in the best examples. Fruit size also can vary from plant to plant and on the same plant with some tomatoes approaching a pound and others barely tipping the scales at three ounces. Some susceptibility to catfacing and zippering.
Cherokee Purple, when it first hit the scene appears to have been a bit unstable, as witnessed by some variations in growth habit, or subjected to outcrossing soon after it's introduction, as it also began showing flesh and skin color morphing resulting in several other lines of chocolate/maroon, amber toned green-when-ripe, and bicolor types, as well as clear yellow and clear green.
Personally, Cherokee Purple was my initial favorite, and I have used it in several crosses, as have many other backyard tomato breeders.

Indian Stripe: Repeatedly called, but never proven, "a strain of Cherokee Purple," it is indeed very similar in appearance, depending on the seed source. However, upon obtaining seeds directly from the original source, I found Indian Stripe also expresses variations in plant habit and fruit size and production. Far less susceptibility to catfacing and BER, but occasionally will zipper.
My initial seed purchase (a 2005 seed lot) was from Victory Seed Co., and those seed produced several plants that matched Carolyn Male's description of Indian Stripe to a "T." However, the same seed lot also gave me off types in pink fruit, as well as some variation in fruit shapes, plant to plant, grown side by side in 2006, including some high round shapes which upon reflection cause me to not be surprised that eventually an "Indian Stripe Heart" expressed itself in Washington State from saved seed I sent to a lady calling herself Bluelytes.
By comparison, the seeds I got from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer in 2008 produced fruit in 2009 significantly larger in size and darker in color when grown side by side with the saved seed from the Victory Seed Co. germplasm.
Indian Stripe is an earlier variety than Cherokee Purple, and I have gotten ripe tomatoes in 70 days from Indian Stripe compared with Cherokee Purple in 82 days, grown in the same garden, same years. Indian Stripe, after the off-types were culled out of the seed pool, also produces more uniform fruit sizes, and has been more tolerant of Early Blight, outgrowing and staying ahead of the affliction.

Spudakee: I obtained seeds directly from Bill Malin who got them directly from his friend in Ohio in whose garden the "mutation" occurred. This line is different from the Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf that appeared in Jere Gettle's Missouri garden about the same time.
Spudakee for me will set fruit earlier and in cooler conditions than Cherokee Purple, and will continue to set fruit in higher temps, and throughout the growing season, until it absolutely goes bonkers at the end of the season.
Spudakee is not as flavorful to me as Cherokee Purple, but is about the same as Indian Stripe with regard to fruit flavor, fruit size, days to maturity, and in respect to production, although I consistently get far more fruit production from the Spudakee seeds that I selected by saving from the original two plants I grew.

Have not grown Indian Stripe PL, and the Indian Stripe "Heart" seeds sent to me by Bluelytes had been fermented to the point that the endosperm was exposed and not viable.

BigVanVader · February 3, 2016

Spudakee sounds awesome.

charley · February 3, 2016

for me cherokee purple has the best flavor and worst production
i.s. and spudakee has alot more production but the flavor just aint there for me.
so i go to a cherokee purple grafted and get awesome taste and productin.the best of both worlds.

seaeagle · February 3, 2016

The first year I grew Cherokee Purple, i grew two plants from the same seed package and got two different plants.

One plant grew about 9 feet tall, bushy and had medium size dark colored tomatoes with pretty decent taste. A bit more productive than the other Cherokee Purple plant.

The second Cherokee Purple plant was kinda slim(not bushy) and about six or seven feet tall and still very productive.Large darker tomatoes and the taste was like a gift from the tomato gods.It tasted more like an exotic fruit than a tomato. No core and the green shoulders eventually turned dark and where it used to be green had an even different amazing taste.

So after reading this thread, couldn't someone come to the conclusion that all these are the same tomato, with different selections?They all originated in the south and all had a name associated with Native Americans.

I could delve further into this subject but i don't want to get a visit from the "big boys" in their stretch tomato chariot

JLJ_ · February 3, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

And of course I'll be interestged in your iS variations since I was the first to get it from Donna Nelson and spread it around . . .

You know about my IS comparisons already from our communications last fall . . . in the last one, I think, you said that you still hadn't heard from Marina about seed from her IS Heart?

Other than that, the IS variations are just ISPL and original IS and IS Heart? from seed I grew from your 2013 seed offer and IS Heart? Marsha grew from some of my 2013 crop seed that I sent her -- my objective being to compare fruit of the IS Heart?s with the other IS's to see if there is any difference in heartiness.

Also, my primary objective this year is to compare these and several other groups of related and similar varieties -- several Brandywines, for example -- and other groups -- to see which, if any, of several highly regarded tasty varieties that no sane person would grow here might perform at least passably with a little extra help -- weather, health and voles permitting. :/

**carolyn137** · February 3, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLJ_

You know about my IS comparisons already from our communications last fall . . . in the last one, I think, you said that you still hadn't heard from Marina about seed from her IS Heart?

Other than that, the IS variations are just ISPL and original IS and IS Heart? from seed I grew from your 2013 seed offer and IS Heart? Marsha grew from some of my 2013 crop seed that I sent her -- my objective being to compare fruit of the IS Heart?s with the other IS's to see if there is any difference in heartiness.

Also, my primary objective this year is to compare these and several other groups of related and similar varieties -- several Brandywines, for example -- and other groups -- to see which, if any, of several highly regarded tasty varieties that no sane person would grow here might perform at least passably with a little extra help -- weather, health and voles permitting. :/

OK, it's clear to me that what you consider variations is not what I mean as to variations/

I meant the IS/IZ situation and don't consider the IS PL or the the IS heart a variation.

And no, I still haven't heard back from Marina, so maybe best to put that project aside for now and I do check if she's visited here every day, and she has not, so I have been hesitant to e-mail her again.

Carolyn

ginger2778 · February 3, 2016

Travis, I would like to offer you some IS Heart seed, if you want seeds from me that is, which I grew out from seed given to me by JLJ, his gotten from Carolyn's seed offer.

gssgarden · February 3, 2016

I'm doing CP, Indian Stripe, Carbon, Pink Berkeley Tie Dye, and Large Barred Boar as my fav darks comparison this season.

Greg

February 3, 2016	#1
sjamesNorway Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Norway Posts: 1,049	Comparisons: Spudakee, Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe This is a continuation from a thread that some of us posted in at idigmygarden, while Tomatoville was down, titled "The Classics". I have also posted a similar question in "The Versus Thread" here, but it seems to be lost there. I'm mostly looking for comparisons between two or all three varieties by those who've grown them together in the same season. Steve

February 3, 2016	#7
Linda10 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brush Prairie, WA Posts: 925	This is my year for growing out my favorite blacks plus many new to me. I won't be comparing Cherokee Purple because it has never done very well here. I'll try to report back here later. __________________ Linda10

February 3, 2016	#6
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,919	I have no current experience to share relatin to the topic. But I will grow a 4-way comparison this year, to find it first hand. (1) CP, (2) IS (RL), (3) BLACK f TULA, (4) BLACK SEA MAN I can already tell you than BFT was better than CP in my garden last year, production wise, taste being similar. But I am growing CP to check it vs IS. Come August, I can do a review. Gardeneer

February 3, 2016	#8
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	Cherokee Purple: Classic. Initiated the "heirloom" tomato movement for many folks because it was one of the first purples to become widely available as a bedding transplant from Bonnie and Chef Jeff Heirlooms. Plant growth habit can be a bit variable from seed source to seed source, with some examples very stout, stubby, and almost determinate in pattern, and others ranging wildly up and over top of wire cages. Superior sweet, complex, deep flavor in the best examples. Fruit size also can vary from plant to plant and on the same plant with some tomatoes approaching a pound and others barely tipping the scales at three ounces. Some susceptibility to catfacing and zippering. Cherokee Purple, when it first hit the scene appears to have been a bit unstable, as witnessed by some variations in growth habit, or subjected to outcrossing soon after it's introduction, as it also began showing flesh and skin color morphing resulting in several other lines of chocolate/maroon, amber toned green-when-ripe, and bicolor types, as well as clear yellow and clear green. Personally, Cherokee Purple was my initial favorite, and I have used it in several crosses, as have many other backyard tomato breeders. Indian Stripe: Repeatedly called, but never proven, "a strain of Cherokee Purple," it is indeed very similar in appearance, depending on the seed source. However, upon obtaining seeds directly from the original source, I found Indian Stripe also expresses variations in plant habit and fruit size and production. Far less susceptibility to catfacing and BER, but occasionally will zipper. My initial seed purchase (a 2005 seed lot) was from Victory Seed Co., and those seed produced several plants that matched Carolyn Male's description of Indian Stripe to a "T." However, the same seed lot also gave me off types in pink fruit, as well as some variation in fruit shapes, plant to plant, grown side by side in 2006, including some high round shapes which upon reflection cause me to not be surprised that eventually an "Indian Stripe Heart" expressed itself in Washington State from saved seed I sent to a lady calling herself Bluelytes. By comparison, the seeds I got from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer in 2008 produced fruit in 2009 significantly larger in size and darker in color when grown side by side with the saved seed from the Victory Seed Co. germplasm. Indian Stripe is an earlier variety than Cherokee Purple, and I have gotten ripe tomatoes in 70 days from Indian Stripe compared with Cherokee Purple in 82 days, grown in the same garden, same years. Indian Stripe, after the off-types were culled out of the seed pool, also produces more uniform fruit sizes, and has been more tolerant of Early Blight, outgrowing and staying ahead of the affliction. Spudakee: I obtained seeds directly from Bill Malin who got them directly from his friend in Ohio in whose garden the "mutation" occurred. This line is different from the Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf that appeared in Jere Gettle's Missouri garden about the same time. Spudakee for me will set fruit earlier and in cooler conditions than Cherokee Purple, and will continue to set fruit in higher temps, and throughout the growing season, until it absolutely goes bonkers at the end of the season. Spudakee is not as flavorful to me as Cherokee Purple, but is about the same as Indian Stripe with regard to fruit flavor, fruit size, days to maturity, and in respect to production, although I consistently get far more fruit production from the Spudakee seeds that I selected by saving from the original two plants I grew. Have not grown Indian Stripe PL, and the Indian Stripe "Heart" seeds sent to me by Bluelytes had been fermented to the point that the endosperm was exposed and not viable.

February 3, 2016	#9
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	Spudakee sounds awesome.

February 3, 2016	#10
charley Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: copperas cove TEXAS Posts: 637	for me cherokee purple has the best flavor and worst production i.s. and spudakee has alot more production but the flavor just aint there for me. so i go to a cherokee purple grafted and get awesome taste and productin.the best of both worlds.

February 3, 2016	#11
seaeagle Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: virginia Posts: 743	The first year I grew Cherokee Purple, i grew two plants from the same seed package and got two different plants. One plant grew about 9 feet tall, bushy and had medium size dark colored tomatoes with pretty decent taste. A bit more productive than the other Cherokee Purple plant. The second Cherokee Purple plant was kinda slim(not bushy) and about six or seven feet tall and still very productive.Large darker tomatoes and the taste was like a gift from the tomato gods.It tasted more like an exotic fruit than a tomato. No core and the green shoulders eventually turned dark and where it used to be green had an even different amazing taste. So after reading this thread, couldn't someone come to the conclusion that all these are the same tomato, with different selections?They all originated in the south and all had a name associated with Native Americans. I could delve further into this subject but i don't want to get a visit from the "big boys" in their stretch tomato chariot

February 3, 2016	#14
ginger2778 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Plantation, Florida zone 10 Posts: 9,283	Travis, I would like to offer you some IS Heart seed, if you want seeds from me that is, which I grew out from seed given to me by JLJ, his gotten from Carolyn's seed offer.

February 3, 2016	#15
gssgarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,827	I'm doing CP, Indian Stripe, Carbon, Pink Berkeley Tie Dye, and Large Barred Boar as my fav darks comparison this season. Greg