Cherokee Green - Bicolour: Pic Added

Grub · February 11, 2007

I hope you get to see this thread Mark Korney.

I planted two of what he thought were Cherokee Greens that he said turned out to be possible bicolours... I wanted to make sure he got some seeds as he has been kind to me in this respect in past seasons

Both are plants are productive, but different.

Plant 1 produced a mass of small to medium beefsteaks. The first fruit turned red, however, subsequent fruit are red with orange stripes and mottling.

Plant 2 has the same fruit size and quantity, but they are yellow. Light lemony yellow with slight blush at this stage with a later DTM.

Tastes test to come... cross or instability, I don't know, but Cherokee Yellow is a possibility

**carolyn137** · February 12, 2007

Grub, sounds like crossed seed to me.

I also got a white fruited plant from some Cherokee Green seed and it was perfectly awful tasting, so much so that I never even saved seed from it.

After all these years with so many growing CG I think that others should have seen something if it were genetically unstable.

The Cherokee Purple to Cherokee Chooclate was a simple spontaneous epidermis mutation, easily understood. The CC to CG mutation that happened in Darrell Merrell's garden is also understood, genetically, and was also, apparently a spontaneous mutation since no stabilization was need b'c spontaneous mutations are permanent and heritable.

So by all means taste, save seeds if you want to, and see if you still get genetic segregation when you plant out the F2 seeds.

I'm still betting on crossed seed giving you what you have now, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

Grub · February 12, 2007

Thanks Carolyn,

I'm with you on thinking this is a cross. So fingers crossed it tastes great... been a pretty excellent season here again.

Even got rain. Wow. Exciting.

**Lee** · February 12, 2007

Cherokee Green has been a most interesting (and annoying ) variety with respect to stability the past couple of seasons.

I grew it in 05 from my saved seed and got a medium/large red in my garden and the correct green in my dad's garden.
Last year, we had these show up at Tomatopalooza[tm] IV.

Two of these came from Craig's seedlings grown at a surrogate farm. (Craig's seedling he grew himself was as expected...)

We also got a correct version shown here:

I'm not sure if we've got crossing problems, stability problems, or both.......

Lee

**carolyn137** · February 12, 2007

Lee, My Cherokee Green, original seeds from Craig, have grown as expected both for me and for others locally to whom I gave plants as well as SSE members who made requests, in that I haven't heard of any problems in that regard.

So I haven't seen any genetic instability so far.

The one plant I got with white fruit I do attribute to crossing.

And you had fruits of CG brought in by many folks, I'm sure, and who knows whether crossing had occurred or it was genetic instability.

And you did say that Craig's seedling, grown by himself did give true CG.

I'm leaning towrds natural crossing, but of course my mind is open to alternative reports and situations.

Y

**carolyn137** · February 12, 2007

"b'c spontaneous mutations are permanent "

Is not correct. Some spontaneous mutations are unstable especially those induced by outside factors/agents.

*******

Keith, in the systems that I've personally been involved with, such as bacteria, viruses, fungi and human genetic diseases, they have been permanent, heritable mutations.

And that includes mutagenic agents used to induce spontanous mutations in both bacteria and viruses.

So I can only speak to what I know and if you could give some reference to such mutations being unstable with tomatoes, then I could learn something new.

When you say "agents" I know what you mean, but when you say "factors" I don't know what you mean.

DNA should be DNA the world around, as I see it, and the definition or spontaneous mutations that I've known don't allow for future genetic instability.

Of course this is also predicated on almost all spontaneous mutations being a change in a single triplet DNA sequence, as opposed to deletions, additions or inversions.

Grub · February 13, 2007

Mantis, have you got the real CG?

Mantis · February 13, 2007

Not sure Grub. Last year I got small green fruit that were yummy but not up to the expected size. This year it was one of the plants in the dodgey greenhouse soil but did give slightly larger fruit than last year. Haven't had any colour variations in two years just size.

Grub · February 13, 2007

Sounds like the right one based on colour... wouldn't mind giving it a go :>

Mantis · February 13, 2007

Can send seeds if you want some. You have a choice.
Seeds from Ray source Victory Seeds
Seeds from Patrina source John Smarsz
Seeds from my save last year from the largest fruit.

Or all three as I wont be growing it again

Grub · February 13, 2007

I would like to try your seeds, thanks, I have put them on my reduced :wink: want list for next season. I have a couple for you to try. No crosses

Mantis · February 13, 2007

Reduced list LOL. Lynlyn is giving us a pasting over that eh.
I've noted it in my book and will get some off to you.

Grub · February 13, 2007

Thanks Manto... Portugese Monster is turning here

Grub · February 15, 2007

Yep, the red/orange one was, dah-dah, a bicolour...

feraltomatoes · February 16, 2007

I grew 72 plants of Cherokee Green in 2006(seeds from Bruce) cant say I checked every plant but it appeared stable.

February 11, 2007	#1
Grub Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 2,722	Cherokee Green - Bicolour: Pic Added I hope you get to see this thread Mark Korney. I planted two of what he thought were Cherokee Greens that he said turned out to be possible bicolours... I wanted to make sure he got some seeds as he has been kind to me in this respect in past seasons Both are plants are productive, but different. Plant 1 produced a mass of small to medium beefsteaks. The first fruit turned red, however, subsequent fruit are red with orange stripes and mottling. Plant 2 has the same fruit size and quantity, but they are yellow. Light lemony yellow with slight blush at this stage with a later DTM. Tastes test to come... cross or instability, I don't know, but Cherokee Yellow is a possibility

February 12, 2007	#2
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Grub, sounds like crossed seed to me. I also got a white fruited plant from some Cherokee Green seed and it was perfectly awful tasting, so much so that I never even saved seed from it. After all these years with so many growing CG I think that others should have seen something if it were genetically unstable. The Cherokee Purple to Cherokee Chooclate was a simple spontaneous epidermis mutation, easily understood. The CC to CG mutation that happened in Darrell Merrell's garden is also understood, genetically, and was also, apparently a spontaneous mutation since no stabilization was need b'c spontaneous mutations are permanent and heritable. So by all means taste, save seeds if you want to, and see if you still get genetic segregation when you plant out the F2 seeds. I'm still betting on crossed seed giving you what you have now, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. __________________ Carolyn

February 12, 2007	#4
Lee Tomatopalooza™ Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NC-Zone 7 Posts: 2,188	Cherokee Green has been a most interesting (and annoying ) variety with respect to stability the past couple of seasons. I grew it in 05 from my saved seed and got a medium/large red in my garden and the correct green in my dad's garden. Last year, we had these show up at Tomatopalooza[tm] IV. Two of these came from Craig's seedlings grown at a surrogate farm. (Craig's seedling he grew himself was as expected...) We also got a correct version shown here: I'm not sure if we've got crossing problems, stability problems, or both....... Lee __________________ Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put one in a fruit salad. Cuostralee - The best thing on sliced bread.

February 12, 2007	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Lee, My Cherokee Green, original seeds from Craig, have grown as expected both for me and for others locally to whom I gave plants as well as SSE members who made requests, in that I haven't heard of any problems in that regard. So I haven't seen any genetic instability so far. The one plant I got with white fruit I do attribute to crossing. And you had fruits of CG brought in by many folks, I'm sure, and who knows whether crossing had occurred or it was genetic instability. And you did say that Craig's seedling, grown by himself did give true CG. I'm leaning towrds natural crossing, but of course my mind is open to alternative reports and situations. Y __________________ Carolyn

February 12, 2007	#6
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	"b'c spontaneous mutations are permanent " Is not correct. Some spontaneous mutations are unstable especially those induced by outside factors/agents. ******* Keith, in the systems that I've personally been involved with, such as bacteria, viruses, fungi and human genetic diseases, they have been permanent, heritable mutations. And that includes mutagenic agents used to induce spontanous mutations in both bacteria and viruses. So I can only speak to what I know and if you could give some reference to such mutations being unstable with tomatoes, then I could learn something new. When you say "agents" I know what you mean, but when you say "factors" I don't know what you mean. DNA should be DNA the world around, as I see it, and the definition or spontaneous mutations that I've known don't allow for future genetic instability. Of course this is also predicated on almost all spontaneous mutations being a change in a single triplet DNA sequence, as opposed to deletions, additions or inversions. __________________ Carolyn

February 13, 2007	#7
Grub Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 2,722	Mantis, have you got the real CG?

February 13, 2007	#8
Mantis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oz Posts: 1,241	Not sure Grub. Last year I got small green fruit that were yummy but not up to the expected size. This year it was one of the plants in the dodgey greenhouse soil but did give slightly larger fruit than last year. Haven't had any colour variations in two years just size.

February 15, 2007	#14
Grub Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 2,722	Yep, the red/orange one was, dah-dah, a bicolour...

February 16, 2007	#15
feraltomatoes Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Home=Napa Valley/ Garden=Solano County Posts: 245	I grew 72 plants of Cherokee Green in 2006(seeds from Bruce) cant say I checked every plant but it appeared stable.