copper spray

[charline]

I am new to spraying but this year there is so much rain I really have to spray if I want my outside plants to stay healthy.

my question is: how often do I have to spray with copper spray? the label says twice in one season. Is this enough? or do you spray regularely?

thank you for any advice

[ginger2778]

I live in warm humid S.Florida, so disease pressure is very heavy here. I use it or Neem every 7-10 days as a preventive, and also after a heavy rain.

[b54red]

I also use it regularly alternating with Daconil. During long rainy periods neither will do much so I use the dilute bleach spray between showers every few days to help stave off diseases.

Bill

[charline]

thank you for your answers

so lets say every two weeks would not be too much?

[AlittleSalt]

Charline, I'm new to using copper spray too. I don't like answering a thread by asking another question, but in this case, it might help both of us. - I'm wondering if there is a better brand of copper spray to buy - or is it that any brand will do?

[decherdt]

I believe that Did the EU restricted total copper per season for organic production, not too long ago? Sounds like would labels in France demonstrate that restriction?

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by charline

thank you for your answers

so lets say every two weeks would not be too much?

I dont think it would be too much, but be sure you mix at the weakest recommended dose.

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Charline, I'm new to using copper spray too. I don't like answering a thread by asking another question, but in this case, it might help both of us. - I'm wondering if there is a better brand of copper spray to buy - or is it than any brand will do?

I use the Southern Ag brand that I get from Home Depot.

[cwavec]

Charline,

What kind of copper spray are you talking about? There are many and although I use one with
very good results, I'm uncomfortable about saying much without knowing just what you have.
I see some people talking about the brand and/or where they got it but that is completely
meaningless.

Look at the label and find out what the active ingredient is. Then I can help you. By the way,
the "copper spray" I use originated in Europe and the company that makes it advertises in
Rustica magazine so if you are still there you will likely be able to find it.

[cwavec]

For example:

I've just done a little look-up and here are the "copper sprays" I find apparently in common use:

Bordeaux mixture, tribasic copper sulfate, copper oxychloride sulfate, cupric hydroxide and besides
all of that I remember someone who was using a suspension of ground up copper powder.

The thing about all of these is that they involve using a lot of copper and since we are using
copper as a poison essentially (although there are other uses) it makes sense to know just
what we are talking about.

[cwavec]

Two more I found:

Copper oxide

and

Copper ammonium complex - this is the active ingredient in one of the "brands"
mentioned in this thread and is an excellent example of why referring to the brand
is no help at all. How does this stuff work? Is it better than another copper formula?
Does the person posting this recommendation even know.

To help sort out some of these questions, here is a link to a web page from Cornell
University on the topic of copper as a fungicide:

http://cvp.cce.cornell.edu/submission.php?id=140

[cwavec]

Charline:

Early Sunday morning here but I've thought a bit about your situation and here's my
first recommendation. If you have a spray (fungicide, copper or other) on hand, I think
the most sensible action to start with is to go ahead and use it at least once according
to the instructions on the label.

If you bought it in the EU it is likely to be well regulated and so should not do any
real harm. You can get the feeling of at least having done something and then you
can figure out the rest. You will have at least a week or so before you need to do
anything else.

From your first post, I gather that you may be somewhere near Paris. If I were
there, I might be complaining about the rain too! I've been watching France2
and seeing some very bad situations. But take heart - if all you worry about is a
few plants then at least nobody in your family has drowned or had to go to a
shelter.

Two hints though. In case the weather has improved, please do not spray your
plants in the hot sun or you might do some extreme damage. I always spray
before 9:30 AM or after 6 PM to avoid that problem.

Another thing is your sprayer. Try not to use an old one unless you are sure of
what has been in it before. If it had been used for some herbicide you could have
some trouble. A new, inexpensive one would be the better bet unless you are sure.

[charline]

thank you for your time and effort to answer my question
I do not live near Paris and we didnt have too much desaster here. No one in danger, just flooded fields. I am really thankful about that.
I did already spray but as the rain continues I am worried about my plants that are outside. I have 110 plants in pots and in soil. I am happy that I could buy a third plastic tunnel this spring so 67 plants are in security.
no worry about hot sun at the moment..... it is quite cold for the season. The problem is more that I have to find some dry hours to spray....

I spray with bouillie bordelaise bio

[cwavec]

Well, that's quite a project you have there. From your initial post I would have
thought you had maybe three or four plants in a domestic garden but this is
entirely different.

The material you mention is called Bordeaux mixture here (obviously) and I know
from reading that it is highly favored in France. It is, of course, hundreds of years
old and, since tradition reigns, it will be commonly used in France. It is not very
common here although you can mix your own easily enough and in fact it is
possible to buy some premixed packets.

I do not personally prefer (and don't use) the bouillie bordelaise because I think
there are much better and safer products now available. However, you do have an
immediate problem and I suggest the proper course would be to continue with it
for now, at least until the rain stops and you have time to think a bit, perhaps for
the rest of the season.

By the way, are we talking about tomato plants? I would assume so but you
didn't say. And secondly, what is the condition you are trying to treat? Do you
have diseased plants right now? If so, have you identified the disease? Or is it
so far just the rain. I can assure you with 100% total confidence that no amount
of bouillie bordelaise will stop that. Yes, I am being silly but for a reason. In all of
these situations we need to know just what the problem is in order to treat it
correctly. If you have an actual appearance of disease then you need to treat it
right away. If not, then you have a little more time.

Take a close look at your plants, especially the lower leaves. Not just a few but
as many as you have the time to inspect and in different parts of your growing
area. Diseases can enter in one spot and spread from there. See if they look
healthy or if they are yellowing or have strange brown areas. I don't know what
tomato diseases are common in your area. Here, a temperate area much like
most of France, we have two main ones:

Early Blight - alternaria solanii - in French, Alternariose

Late Blight - phytophthora infestans - the same as the Irish Potato Blight

I'm sure you have both of these and maybe more.

I've done a little research and found the recommendation you mentioned for
application twice a year but that is for fruit trees, not tomatoes.

Do you speak and read French? One would think so by your location but I did
look at your blog and found that in German, so thought I should ask. If so,
there are references you can look at for help. Rustica.fr is one and here are a
couple of links:

http://www.rustica.fr/recherche.html...delaise+tomate

http://www.rustica.fr/articles-jardi...mate,2780.html

http://www.rustica.fr/questions-jard...aise,9710.html

None of these directly answers your question but they may help. And you can
search through the rest of Rustica for more help.

I didn't look very far but I didn't find much of a recommendation for using bouillie
bordelaise on tomatoes in Rustica. I could be wrong.

And finally (for now) the product I use is a copper soap. It goes under a variety
of names - Cueva, Soap-shield, Bonide 811 and others. I use this exclusively now
against tomato foliar diseases, although with another product called a spreader-
sticker. I don't know what that might be called in French. The name is strange
enough in English. The chemical name of the soap is copper octanoate and it
is made by Neudorff GmbH although I can't find it on their website at neudorff.de.

We can talk about that later if you like.

Good luck.

[cwavec]

Charline:

One question you were asking was how often do you need to use your "copper spray"
I see that no one has responded to that and neither did I. My reason is that I don't
know. I did a little research on the bouillie bordelaise but did not find very much on
its application to tomatoes. And nothing on how often. There seems to be general
agreement that once applied it can last a long time but that's on trees and no one
seems to say just how long.

By comparison, I spray the copper soap mixture once a week. That varies a little
because I'm looking for times when the weather will be dry for a little while so the
mixture will not wash off immediately. Also, I'm using a very low dose, only 1/4
(one fourth) of an ounce of concentrate per gallon of water. In metric measure
that's about 8 ml per 4 liters of water, or 2 ml per liter of water.

In addition, I use
the "spreader-sticker" (hope you can find a translation for that! - I also would like
to know). The idea is that it is in part a "wetting agent", in other words,
something that causes the mixture to "wet" the leaves and spread over them
evenly. Something like when you wash your hands, if you just use water it maybe
doesn't feel so wet, and some dirt stays. But if you add soap, then it feels more
wet and the remaining dirt gets wet too and then comes off. The other part is
a resinous and sticky stuff so that when the solution dries on the leaves it wants
to stick there and resist coming off, even in a little rainfall.

The product I use for that is "Turbo Spreader Sticker Concentrate" made by
Bonide. Also at 1/4 oz. per gal or 2 ml per liter. The active ingredients are alcohol
ethoxylate and alkylphenol ethoxylate. Well, I'm no chemist but without checking
further I believe these things to be, if not organic, pretty harmless. I've checked
at amazon.fr and find that Turbo is actually available there. On amazon.fr search
for "bonide spreader sticker" and you should see the item with a picture of the
bottle and label, the same item I get here at Agway. One more thing I can say
is that adding the Turbo made a really big difference in the effectiveness of the
copper soap and that's why I feel that I can reduce the dose to such a low
amount.

[cwavec]

Charline,

There is something that you could do for me if you are willing. That relates to the
use of bouillie bordelaise and the reason is I can learn something too, like maybe
to use it here, only not for tomatoes. You see, your mention of applying it twice
in one season has got me thinking about another thing I have tried and failed
completely.

For 7 or 8 years I have been trying to grow some French plum trees (prune to you).
Actually mirabelle and reine claude. I've had 8 trees in that time and all have died or
had to be cut down. The reason is that we have an endemic fungal disease here called
Black Knot (Apiosporina morbosa or Dibotryon morbosum) and the European plums
are very susceptible to it. This fungus does really ugly things to the poor tree and
then it dies. Right now I have one poor little tree in my front yard that I am
reluctant to cut but I know I will have to do it.

CherryBlackKnot.jpg

I live in a forested area with lots of wild black cherry trees that are infected with
this fungus. They survive because they have a tolerance but the European plum
does not. Hardly anyone here thinks it can be controlled and the main advice is
to cut down all the cherry trees but there are hundreds of acres and I don't own
all that land.

Your mention of twice-a-year application of bouillie bordelaise and its persistence
once applied suggest to me that it might be effective. What I would like you to do
is get some information for me:

1) I would like to know if there is a French name for this fungus or a
similar one. Right now the only information I can find is American and
doesn't help much. With a French name I might be able to look up some
other cultural practices.

2) I don't know if you live in a region where fruit trees and especially plums
are common but if you do or know someone else maybe you could ask them
if they know this fungus, if they are affected by it and if they have a cultural
practice that they use to defeat it.

We have a few wonderful fruit tree nurseries in this country and they have
excellent varieties but I have noticed that when we Americans import other
countries' cultivars (seeds, trees, etc.) we never bring the culture along with
it and the result is too often that our efforts fail. I'm thinking that with a
little help from someone in France maybe I can find out what is done there
to prevent this and hope to get a beautiful plum orchard.

Thank you.