Pappy Kerns woes

[kerns125]

As many of you know, last summer I grew a plant from seeds that my now-97 year-old grandfather gave me - a tomato which he'd gotten from family and had grown for decades. It gave me the most intense, sweetest pink heart tomato I had ever tasted, and when I compared it with Brandywine Sudduth's, I was shocked to find I liked it as much if not more. And I am picky about flavor.

Well, I've distributed saved seeds from those luscious fruit and grew out four plants myself this summer. Two of the four plants died without producing -- a problem I had with my Big Beef rootstock (I had a terrible time with wilt, only with the plants I grafted onto Big Beef from Wilhitte.... Won't be buying from them again!). One plant is giving me somewhat larger pink heart tomatoes, which look a little different (bigger and rounder) and are bland and boring -- nothing like the Pappy Kerns I tasted last summer. The only remaining plant was planted at my mom's house, and she gave me two of those fruit -- they LOOK like the same size, shape and color as what I got last year, but again, taste is totally boring. I am devastated. Pappy is looking to see if he has any more seed tucked away somewhere, but I'm wondering what you all think -- the chances of BOTH of my surviving plants being F1 crosses seem low, and yet these tomatoes do not taste the same. But his tomatoes were grown for decades so were definitely stable. Could growing conditions make that much of a difference from year to year? They are grown in earth boxes, with different fertilizer this year than last. We certainly had a freezing cold May with 20+ straight days of rain, and then many high 90-100 degree days this past month. But water has been consistent since they're in earth boxes.

I saved some seeds from my mom's Pappy tomato this summer since it looked similar, and still have seed left from last year's gems, which will be my first to grow out again if Pappy can't find any more originals. Thoughts??

[Patihum]

Fertilizer and weather (temperature extremes, days of sunlight) can all make a difference in how a tomato tastes. I sure wouldn't give up on it just yet.

[pondgardener]

Jen,
What Patihum said is what I was going to say. Carolyn has mentioned many times that growing conditions vary year to year as well as the taste of different varieties. I have 3 plants of "Pappy Kerns" in the garden but they as well as most of my tomatoes are doing not as well as they should due to a lot of factors. But I am looking forward to trying some when they do ripen. I had an entire bed of my aunts tomato "Anna Margaret's Heart", doing poorly this year and they are usually my best producer. So patience is key at this point and you have seed from previous good years so that is a plus.

George

[carolyn137]

Jen,I have two folks growing out Pappy Kerns from the seeds you sent me.One is Lee in NC and he got no germination from 6 seeds,and he's an experienced seed starter and tomato grower and the other one is Neil in IL and I have no feedback from him at all,so far.

So fingers still crossed.

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

I'm so sorry to hear that your wonderful Pappy Kerns aren't behaving for you! I think that accurately preserving these good old family heirlooms is more important than any of the other tomato varieties -- or perhaps that the effort is more important, because the seed pool is smaller and it would be so easy to lose them.

I'll certainly do all I can to get good performance from the seeds you sent me -- and to protect the blossoms so that if they do grow the seeds will be true.

But your plants are the most important of any, as you're the only one who can say "Yes, this plant/fruit is how Pappy Kerns is supposed to be.

Is there any way with your earth boxes that you could reduce the moisture a little and see if that improved the flavor of this year's fruit?

I think you said they received different fertilizer last year and this year? What did you use in the good year and in the not-so-good year?

Was it correct that the area where these had grown for so many generations was western Maryland and West Virginia -- and before that in Pennsylvania? I wonder if there is anything in soil, weather, disease levels in the particular areas where it grew that might point to conditions the tomato likes?

You've probably asked Pappy Kerns to describe exactly what he did when he grew it to see if anything jumped out at you as something that might give a clue to conditions it likes?

Please don't be disheartened, though . . . perhaps the key to getting that special flavor will turn out to be as simple as a little less moisture or a year with more favorable temperatures. Surely there will be some combination of factors and growers that will be able to produce some properly behaving seed for these and help you save this family treasure!

[ginger2778]

Jen Kerns, as an experienced Earthbox grower, I can tell you that the first tomatoes off of an EB plant can be quite large, and also quite watery. That almost always goes away with the second round of fruit. I don't know why, but it's often the case. I have 43 Earthboxes.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

. . . I have 43 Earthboxes.

When you're surrounded by that many, do you get the feeling that it's the earthboxes that have you?

Great thought, though, especially if "Mom" has her plant in an earthbox, too, and if they weren't in earthboxes last year.

[ContainerTed]

Jen, I got two seeds to germinate and both died before setting fruit. I had one in a container up here close to the house and the other in the main garden. Both got to about 3-4 feet tall and then just flopped.

Now, don't give up. You'll get it on your next try. I am still looking forward to this heirloom.

[carolyn137]

Jen,I was just plowing through my data book looking for something and saw that I sent Pappy Kerns to Glenn Drowns at Sandhill who grows everything inground,so we'll see how it does for him.

And also there was the list of heart varieties that I sent you as thanks for the seeds and I hope at least some of them you will like.

Carolyn

[kerns125]

@George -- Thank you for the Anna Margaret's Heart seeds! Your aunt's tomato has been a very low producer for me this year, too -- it must be an all-around bad year.

@Marsha - last year's Pappy Kerns was also in an Earthbox (and the very first tomato was intense and sweet as could be). Also, ALL of this year's Pappy tomatoes have had the same bland flavor, so I can't chalk it up to just the first few fruit.

@JLJ -- I can't blame the problem up to too much water, as last year they had just as much water but were delicious (I have the automatic watering system that keeps the box constantly moist). Same thing for the soil -- they might do better in Western Maryland/PA where it's not quite as steamy, but since they were amazing for me in VA last summer, I hesitate to blame the local soil (plus, again, they were in an Earthbox with Espoma organic potting mix!). Diseases and weather certainly can be different, though.... The fertilizer and dolomite I used last year was Earthbox's proprietary replant kit (costing me an arm and a leg). This year I used a standard (much cheaper) 10-10-10 fertilizer and cheap pulverized lime because I didn't want to pay for 30 replant kits (I have a lot of Earthboxes!). And, I was in my first trimester of pregnancy in May and not feeling at all well, so my husband did the replanting for me this year - so I'm not even sure whether he followed my directions explicitly (about fertilizer amount and placement, for example).

@Carolyn - you are not the first person to report 0% germination, which baffles me because I am not new to seed saving and none of my other saved seeds have given me trouble. One person in New Mexico told me he got 100% germination from Pappy Kerns, and JLJ got 0%. I myself had a low germination rate, too -- maybe 50%, and sounds like Ted also had a low rate, so *something* bad happened. I have them in a sealed plastic Ziploc-type bag with a dessicant inside (a small plastic canister pulled from a vitamin bottle) to keep them dry. Unfortunately only one of the varieties you sent me was a new one for me, and I have yet to plant it (Mrs. Schlaubaugh's), so will hope to taste it in coming years!

Overall, I must admit that other tomatoes are also tasting less-than wonderful for me this year (e.g., a black I loved last year is boring this year, and even my BW Sudduth isn't as good as usual). So maybe there is hope for another year. I certainly will spring for the EB replant kits next time to in case that was the trick. We will also be moving to Bethesda next year (and I'll likely have to skip next summer for growing because we will be in transition), so hopefully the change of venue will help, too. And I'll be dumping all the current soil before we move and will sterilize the boxes before re-using them with fresh Espoma potting mix.

I grew Donskoi for the first time this year, and it's the closest in flavor to my original Pappy Kerns that I grew this year (intense and sweet) - though Donskoi has an earthy/musty undertone to it to me, while I only recall Pappy Kerns tasting bright. Gosh I hope I can get it back in the future!!!

[Tormato]

I wouldn't worry about the flavor. Since it has had good flavor in the past, it will return (you may have to wait for next year, though).

Every heirloom variety I've ever trialed (1,000+) at one time or another, has been a total dud. It's usually been because of too much rain over a fairly long time period.

Even in the same season, I can have two plants of the same variety side-by side in the garden. If one gets watered every 5 days the fruit tastes great. If the other gets watered twice as often (every 2 1/2 days) those fruit are completely bland.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Jen,I have two folks growing out Pappy Kerns from the seeds you sent me.One is Lee in NC and he got no germination from 6 seeds,and he's an experienced seed starter and tomato grower and the other one is Neil in IL and I have no feedback from him at all,so far.

So fingers still crossed.

Carolyn

Just letting you know that Neil and I talked today and he had no problem with the seeds and has 2 plants out,inground,and for almost all of his varieties 2 plants also but has well over 1200 plants out in total;.

I know that he also gets seeds from Ilex in Spain via his SSE listings and who knows what else but the reason I'm happy about all that Neil does seed production for me is that he SSE lists them and many seed vendors get their starts from SSE listings.

There are two other of my seed producers who are also listed SSE members and they will also be SSE listing.

Last year I stopped being a listed member, having started doing so in 1989

And look for a thread in General Discussion b'c I posted here in your thread,but I was thrilled to see what Neil got growing,not just for this year but also last year when he lost almost everything due to relentless rain.

Better I do that special thread and letting folk here know how things with went with seeds sent to me rather than trying to inform each person separately. But there are many who also sent me seeds they produced as well.

Carolyn, whose tomatoes out back are still looking lousy but Freda brought two ripe ones in today, Black Striped Heart ones.

[Fred Hempel]

Jen,

This kind of thing happens.

Many years ago I when to a tomato festival and by far, the best tomato sampled was Black Prince. I was so struck that I saved seeds from the tomatoes that were served.

The next spring I raved about Black Prince to everyone who would listen and gave away plants assuming that I was going to be thanked profusely when everyone grew the plants up and realized how much I knew about tomato flavor.

That year I grew out 20+ black varieties and it was the most tasteless one of them all.

Needless to say, no one came back raving to me about my brilliance in selecting Black Prince for them to grow.

What happened? Was I in a twilight zone the year before? Probably not. I do believe that they were the best tomatoes at that taste testing.

Explanations: Black Prince can be great. Perhaps when under stress, or when grown in very specific conditions.

Reality: It is not really only about how good a tomato can be. It is also about how consistently one can get good-to-very-good results.

I never trust results from one year and/or one site anymore. It is just too risky, and I was pretty embarrassed that year. But most of us have had this experience, it is not a big deal.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

Jen,

This kind of thing happens.

Many years ago I when to a tomato festival and by far, the best tomato sampled was Black Prince. I was so struck that I saved seeds from the tomatoes that were served.

The next spring I raved about Black Prince to everyone who would listen and gave away plants assuming that I was going to be thanked profusely when everyone grew the plants up and realized how much I knew about tomato flavor.

That year I grew out 20+ black varieties and it was the most tasteless one of them all.

Needless to say, no one came back raving to me about my brilliance in selecting Black Prince for them to grow.

What happened? Was I in a twilight zone the year before? Probably not. I do believe that they were the best tomatoes at that taste testing.

Explanations: Black Prince can be great. Perhaps when under stress, or when grown in very specific conditions.

Reality: It is not really only about how good a tomato can be. It is also about how consistently one can get good-to-very-good results.

I never trust results from one year and/or one site anymore. It is just too risky, and I was pretty embarrassed that year. But most of us have had this experience, it is not a big deal.

So true Fred and I know since I used to do a lot of taste testings,I'd bring lots of different fruits and so would others as well.

Taking just one variety where we had two fruits there could be quite a differences that depended on where someone lived, angle of sun exposure, any amendments being used,if so which ones and how much, soil quality,and on and on with the variables.

Between each tasting of a single variety we had unsalted crackers and water out there to clense the palate, and of course I had my faves,but we had rating sheets they all filled out and when some of my faves went down in flames,well,what is,is.

In Jen's other thread here I just noted the results of Neil,who got seeds from Jen when she SSE listed it last Spring, and then he got seeds from me that she had sent me, and he put out 2 plants of each,found they were identical, and called it a great variety.

Carolyn

[kerns125]

Thank you both, Fred and Carolyn.
Interestingly, one of my failed grafts (onto Big Beef) last summer was a Pappy Kerns. It grew horrible gnarled branches and a few tiny tomatoes maybe an inch in diameter and only ripening at the end of the season. I tasted one of these ugly runts and lo and behold, it had that bright intense flavor of the one I had so loved. The seeds were only half the size of normal seeds but I saved them anyway just in case. What do you think? (Of note, the original that I loved was not stressed and grew in the same conditions and this past summer- earthbox with consistent water, hot and humid DC weather).