Dotson's Lebanese Heart

JLJ_ · December 21, 2016

Thought valuable discussion was going on in a thread on a different topic, and might never be found by those interested in the tomato, so thought I'd start this thread.

Spartanburg, don't know if you've had time to do a comparison yourself, or if others have, but has Dotson's Lebanese Heart been grown in same location/time as its parent Omar's Lebanese Tomato to see how they compare with respect to plant size, conformation, disease tolerance/resistance, cold/hot temperature tolerance/preference, average fruit size/weight, days to maturity, etc. ?

Might be interesting, if not already done, to see how they compare with multiple plants grown in multiple locations?

(Hope I got the name right . . . or is it Mama Dotson's Lebanese Heart?)

Spartanburg123 · December 21, 2016

JLJ, yes, that's the correct name

When it was discovered, it was growing right next to 4 other plants grown from the same seed pack. The other 4 were the typical oblate OL's with dark green shoulders. I included some pictures in my thread here:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...lebanese+heart

The tomatoes had the same coloration, leaf habit, and even some concentric cracking like the 4 oblates right next to it.

Seeds from the 2 blunt heart tomatoes I got to ripen were sent to a grower, who planted 12 seeds if I'm not mistaken. All threw blunt hearts, with excellent flavor. Leaf habit was broad RL, just like the Omar's Lebanese plant.

Thanks for opening up this thread!!

Darin

Gardeneer · December 21, 2016

Well , it ( Dotson's Lebanese ) does well in Spartanburg, SC , That is good enough for me. I am in Southeast, NC, just across the state line from SC.
I would grow it in 2017 if I can get seeds for it.

Spartanburg123 · December 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Well , it ( Dotson's Lebanese ) does well in Spartanburg, SC , That is good enough for me. I am in Southeast, NC, just across the state line from SC.
I would grow it in 2017 if I can get seeds for it.

Gardeneer-

Shoot me a PM with your address, and I'll be delighted to send a few seeds from the original two tomatoes!

Thanks for your support-

Darin

imp · December 22, 2016

I'm looking forward to seeing the seed offered after it is increased- sounds good andalso a tasty one! I have a fondness for hearts.

Let me, or all of us, know when there is plenty of seed, I'll be getting in line!

Good job on catching the change to a heart, keep your chin up and be happy.

JLJ_ · December 22, 2016

Echoing what Imp said . . . when there are plenty of seeds available, be sure to let everyone know. It will be interesting to see what occurs when there's widespread multigenerational growouts. Whatever it is, it will be something good, from the evidence you have thus far!

I think your decision to give the tomato a name of its own has much in its favor. Obviously something you have a right to do for whatever reason you wish, but also, there is the possibility that this is a cross -- you mentioned distinctly larger leaves on the heart plant than on the Omar's Lebanese Tomato plants -- and there is its "all heart fruits" behavior with conspicuously heart shaped baby fruit rather than a heartish tendency with multiple fruit shapes, the possibility of difference in mean fruit size . . . a possible difference in vulnerability to BER?.

All of which doesn't mean it is a cross, of course, but might be -- perhaps with a variety that is similar to the mama plant -- that sort of accidental cross found in a field of some tomato variety has produced many fine new tomato varieties over the decades -- and with the tomato having its own name, which does reflect the known part of its ancestry, it doesn't really matter if it is a mutation or a cross, as long as it's a yummy and stable tomato.

Of course you'll have the best data on that if distributed seeds are grown with protection via barrier or distance to make any further possible crossing unlikely.

In any event, congratulations on producing a fine memorial for your immediate maternal ancestor -- the world always needs more good tasting tomatoes!

Dutch · December 22, 2016

Hi Friends,

First; Thank you JLJ for starting this thread as a place to find a resolution to the debate involving the naming of the heart shaped form of “Omar’s Lebanese”.
Second; I have sent seeds to no one! I still have all the seeds from my grow outs.
Third; As I see it, per past protocol, as the finder of this variant Darin has the naming rights.
Forth; As a seed producer for Carolyn, we pledge to not release any seeds we produce for her, without her consent.

Darin has stated that he would like to see the name changed to “Dotson's Lebanese Heart”.
The “working name” of this variety was “Omar’s Lebanese Heart”.
I therefore am inclined to label these as; Dotson's Lebanese Heart(aka Omar’s Lebanese Heart)

Compromise is never easy and the parties involved rarely get all they seek!

With Carolyn’s permission I will send seeds out per her consent.
I would like to label them as; Dotson's Lebanese Heart (aka Omar’s Lebanese Heart)

Peace and Understanding,
Thanks again to all,
Dutch
P.S. Can I get a “so be it” aka "let it be"

Ricky Shaw · December 22, 2016

And the red seed was parted.

Ricky Shaw · December 22, 2016

Well actually they're probably still pink tomatoes, but that offered very little in the way of comedy.

Spartanburg123 · December 22, 2016

Thanks everyone! Dutch- I really appreciate your understanding on this, and for growing it out for seed. I am perfectly fine with an "aka", it's a great reminder of its heritage. Since you have by far the most experience with this tomato, please fill in any observations like disease tolerance, epidermal color, size, etc.
The possibility still exists that a stray seed made it into the Totally Tomatoes seed pack. I have been looking through all of the available heart varieties, but nothing appears to be a blunt heart with broad leaves. I will call them and discuss pronto!

You all have been much too kind- my sincere hope is that this cultivar pleases all who grow it!!

Darin

JLJ_ · December 22, 2016

Dutch, might it diminish the chances of a permanent two-name situation to label them Dotson's Lebanese Heart (working name was Omar’s Lebanese Heart)

**carolyn137** · December 22, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLJ_

Dutch, might it diminish the chances of a permanent two-name situation to label them Dotson's Lebanese Heart (working name was Omar’s Lebanese Heart)

I would agree with that,meaning the two names, such as Omar's Lebanese Heart,aka Dotson's Lebanese Heart.

There are several examples for two names where the original name came first and then the aka

Two that I can remember right now are

Chadwick's Cherry,aka Camp Joy
Gardener's Delight,aka Sugar Lump.

Good suggestion JLJ.

Carolyn, and Dutch,I will be in touch with you via our seed producer site for obvious reasons referring to others there.

Dutch · December 22, 2016

Thanks for your input JLJ,
I think that if a two name situation happens in the future, there will be a reason for it and thus it was meant to be. Carolyn has the final say so on how I should label the seeds I produced for her.
Dutch
P.S. I see Carolyn has just posted before me. More later.

Gerardo · December 22, 2016

I haven't been called that since my honeymoon.

https://youtu.be/aEtTtfOGkx8

Rajun Gardener · December 22, 2016

Let me be as tactful as I can. With that said and I hope it's clear to everyone I'm just trying to understand how these problems keep happening. This is twice in one week the subject came up and we (the TV community) needs to find a way so this doesn't happen again.

How does Carolyn have the final say of naming rights when it has nothing to do with her. She's only the middle person in this transaction.

Is there something I'm missing or is it an understanding that once someone has something new and they send seeds to Carolyn that she has final say of what to name it with the grower?

Why does the grower have any say on any thing except the description? I'm sure we get better descriptions of tomatoes here on TV than any one grower can provide because you get results across the country in different growing conditions.

Is it really that hard to get a new tomato to the public that Carolyn has to help, can't anyone list a new tomato on SSE? Why even go that route to begin with? Who gets paid when someone buys seeds from SSE? Is it the grower? Do all the sales go to SSE for management and storage of seeds?

I really think it's common sense of who names the seeds and it shouldn't be a disagreement with the person who discovered it. It's not like your DR. gets a say in what to name your child and the nurse gets credit for being there helping.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and if I am then put this in the "Most Embarrassing Things You've Done" thread.

December 21, 2016	#1
JLJ_ Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 759	Dotson's Lebanese Heart Thought valuable discussion was going on in a thread on a different topic, and might never be found by those interested in the tomato, so thought I'd start this thread. Spartanburg, don't know if you've had time to do a comparison yourself, or if others have, but has Dotson's Lebanese Heart been grown in same location/time as its parent Omar's Lebanese Tomato to see how they compare with respect to plant size, conformation, disease tolerance/resistance, cold/hot temperature tolerance/preference, average fruit size/weight, days to maturity, etc. ? Might be interesting, if not already done, to see how they compare with multiple plants grown in multiple locations? (Hope I got the name right . . . or is it Mama Dotson's Lebanese Heart?)

December 21, 2016	#3
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,919	Well , it ( Dotson's Lebanese ) does well in Spartanburg, SC , That is good enough for me. I am in Southeast, NC, just across the state line from SC. I would grow it in 2017 if I can get seeds for it. __________________ Gardeneer Happy Gardening !

December 22, 2016	#6
JLJ_ Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 759	Echoing what Imp said . . . when there are plenty of seeds available, be sure to let everyone know. It will be interesting to see what occurs when there's widespread multigenerational growouts. Whatever it is, it will be something good, from the evidence you have thus far! I think your decision to give the tomato a name of its own has much in its favor. Obviously something you have a right to do for whatever reason you wish, but also, there is the possibility that this is a cross -- you mentioned distinctly larger leaves on the heart plant than on the Omar's Lebanese Tomato plants -- and there is its "all heart fruits" behavior with conspicuously heart shaped baby fruit rather than a heartish tendency with multiple fruit shapes, the possibility of difference in mean fruit size . . . a possible difference in vulnerability to BER?. All of which doesn't mean it is a cross, of course, but might be -- perhaps with a variety that is similar to the mama plant -- that sort of accidental cross found in a field of some tomato variety has produced many fine new tomato varieties over the decades -- and with the tomato having its own name, which does reflect the known part of its ancestry, it doesn't really matter if it is a mutation or a cross, as long as it's a yummy and stable tomato. Of course you'll have the best data on that if distributed seeds are grown with protection via barrier or distance to make any further possible crossing unlikely. In any event, congratulations on producing a fine memorial for your immediate maternal ancestor -- the world always needs more good tasting tomatoes! Last edited by JLJ_; December 22, 2016 at 11:14 AM.

December 22, 2016	#7
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Hi Friends, First; Thank you JLJ for starting this thread as a place to find a resolution to the debate involving the naming of the heart shaped form of “Omar’s Lebanese”. Second; I have sent seeds to no one! I still have all the seeds from my grow outs. Third; As I see it, per past protocol, as the finder of this variant Darin has the naming rights. Forth; As a seed producer for Carolyn, we pledge to not release any seeds we produce for her, without her consent. Darin has stated that he would like to see the name changed to “Dotson's Lebanese Heart”. The “working name” of this variety was “Omar’s Lebanese Heart”. I therefore am inclined to label these as; Dotson's Lebanese Heart(aka Omar’s Lebanese Heart) Compromise is never easy and the parties involved rarely get all they seek! With Carolyn’s permission I will send seeds out per her consent. I would like to label them as; Dotson's Lebanese Heart (aka Omar’s Lebanese Heart) Peace and Understanding, Thanks again to all, Dutch P.S. Can I get a “so be it” aka "let it be" __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries. Last edited by Dutch; December 22, 2016 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Grammer and Spellin

December 22, 2016	#13
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Thanks for your input JLJ, I think that if a two name situation happens in the future, there will be a reason for it and thus it was meant to be. Carolyn has the final say so on how I should label the seeds I produced for her. Dutch P.S. I see Carolyn has just posted before me. More later. __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries. Last edited by Dutch; December 22, 2016 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Added Post Script

December 21, 2016	#2
Spartanburg123 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 1,262	JLJ, yes, that's the correct name When it was discovered, it was growing right next to 4 other plants grown from the same seed pack. The other 4 were the typical oblate OL's with dark green shoulders. I included some pictures in my thread here: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...lebanese+heart The tomatoes had the same coloration, leaf habit, and even some concentric cracking like the 4 oblates right next to it. Seeds from the 2 blunt heart tomatoes I got to ripen were sent to a grower, who planted 12 seeds if I'm not mistaken. All threw blunt hearts, with excellent flavor. Leaf habit was broad RL, just like the Omar's Lebanese plant. Thanks for opening up this thread!! Darin

December 22, 2016	#5
imp Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Wichita Falls, Texas Posts: 4,832	I'm looking forward to seeing the seed offered after it is increased- sounds good andalso a tasty one! I have a fondness for hearts. Let me, or all of us, know when there is plenty of seed, I'll be getting in line! Good job on catching the change to a heart, keep your chin up and be happy.

December 22, 2016	#8
Ricky Shaw Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Zone 6a Denver North Metro Posts: 1,910	And the red seed was parted.

December 22, 2016	#14
Gerardo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Diego-Tijuana Posts: 2,598	I haven't been called that since my honeymoon. https://youtu.be/aEtTtfOGkx8

December 22, 2016	#15
Rajun Gardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Tomato Cornhole Posts: 2,550	Let me be as tactful as I can. With that said and I hope it's clear to everyone I'm just trying to understand how these problems keep happening. This is twice in one week the subject came up and we (the TV community) needs to find a way so this doesn't happen again. How does Carolyn have the final say of naming rights when it has nothing to do with her. She's only the middle person in this transaction. Is there something I'm missing or is it an understanding that once someone has something new and they send seeds to Carolyn that she has final say of what to name it with the grower? Why does the grower have any say on any thing except the description? I'm sure we get better descriptions of tomatoes here on TV than any one grower can provide because you get results across the country in different growing conditions. Is it really that hard to get a new tomato to the public that Carolyn has to help, can't anyone list a new tomato on SSE? Why even go that route to begin with? Who gets paid when someone buys seeds from SSE? Is it the grower? Do all the sales go to SSE for management and storage of seeds? I really think it's common sense of who names the seeds and it shouldn't be a disagreement with the person who discovered it. It's not like your DR. gets a say in what to name your child and the nurse gets credit for being there helping. Maybe I'm completely wrong and if I am then put this in the "Most Embarrassing Things You've Done" thread.