Ripe vs unripe seeds?

[maxjohnson]

Does it make a difference to the genetics if you save the seeds before the fruit is fully ripe, or not at all?

[KarenO]

it will not make a difference in the genetics however saving seeds from unripe fruit may mean that the seeds are immature. Immature seeds have a soft seed coat and do not ferment and store well and the germination rate will therefore be affected.
Best to wait at least until fruit are blushing before saving seeds but best of all to save seeds from healthy disease free plants and mature ripe fruits whenever possible.
KarenO

One possible advantage of saving viable seeds from unripe fruits is if only some of the seeds have matured, you can select for seeds that mature the soonest. I hypothesize that this could lead to earlier fruit over the generations. However, it might just give you fruits with the same maturity with seeds that mature sooner.

Selecting for these kinds of seeds is a lot easier with watermelons and other cucurbits, though, since the immature seeds are easier to identify just by looking at them.

This is something I'm experimenting with. So, feel free to ask me how it went in several years.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by maxjohnson

Does it make a difference to the genetics if you save the seeds before the fruit is fully ripe, or not at all?

What if "ripe" and "fully ripe" ?
If you can normally eat a tomato , then you can save seeds from it that are viable.
According to Carolyn, you can even save seeds from tomato that is partially green.

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

According to Carolyn, you can even save seeds from tomato that is partially green.

Yep, that's certainly true in my experience. I've personally found them to be viable at some point before that when they're fully green, but looking for at least a hint of ripeness removes the guesswork. However, I don't know if there are long-term consequences to harvesting them that early. It's possible they might not store as long or some such, or germination rates might differ. When in doubt, you can grow it again and save new seeds (then you won't have to worry about keeping the old ones for a long time).

If seed coats won't ferment, you can still remove them. There's the blender method. I usually just rub them off in a strainer under running water, though (which takes practice, but once you get used to it, it works well). I didn't know immature seeds' seed coats wouldn't ferment, though. I'm not sure whether the seeds I'm talking about have been immature, quite, as they appear developed.

Seeds left and dried in their seed coats will even germinate, if you really want to do it, but it doesn't look professional at all; it doesn't look clean; diseases might be in the dried seed coats; germination rates might be reduced (but some to many still germinate after a winter in storage; I'm not sure about years, though); seeds that do germinate may have more trouble opening. I learned this the first year I got into saving tomato seeds, since I didn't even know seed coats were a thing. I wondered how everyone got their seeds all clean and fuzzy-looking like freshly brushed horses. But, I planted them, and they grew. I'm pretty sure they carried anthracnose, though, but I still got tomatoes; it's a dry climate; so, anthracnose isn't a huge deal while it's hot and dry.

[KarenO]

Originally Posted by shule1

Yep, that's certainly true in my experience. I've personally found them to be viable at some point before that when they're fully green, but looking for at least a hint of ripeness removes the guesswork. However, I don't know if there are long-term consequences to harvesting them that early. It's possible they might not store as long or some such, or germination rates might differ. When in doubt, you can grow it again and save new seeds (then you won't have to worry about keeping the old ones for a long time).

If seed coats won't ferment, you can still remove them. There's the blender method. I usually just rub them off in a strainer under running water, though (which takes practice, but once you get used to it, it works well). I didn't know immature seeds' seed coats wouldn't ferment, though. I'm not sure whether the seeds I'm talking about have been immature, quite, as they appear developed.

Seeds left and dried in their seed coats will even germinate, if you really want to do it, but it doesn't look professional at all; it doesn't look clean; diseases might be in the dried seed coats; germination rates might be reduced (but some to many still germinate after a winter in storage; I'm not sure about years, though); seeds that do germinate may have more trouble opening. I learned this the first year I got into saving tomato seeds, since I didn't even know seed coats were a thing. I wondered how everyone got their seeds all clean and fuzzy-looking like freshly brushed horses. But, I planted them, and they grew. I'm pretty sure they carried anthracnose, though, but I still got tomatoes; it's a dry climate; so, anthracnose isn't a huge deal while it's hot and dry.

A seed coat refers to the actual hard shell of the seed that protects and encloses the embryonic plant. I think you are referring to the sac of gel or mucilage surrounding a fresh tomato seed which contains germination inhibitors. this sac is what is removed during fermentation or other seed cleaning procedures. The seed coat remains intact and a mature seed has a stronger seed coat than an immature seed does. Regardless, the genetics were decided at pollination.

KarenO

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

What if "ripe" and "fully ripe" ?
If you can normally eat a tomato , then you can save seeds from it that are viable.
According to Carolyn, you can even save seeds from tomato that is partially green.

Commercial folks who sell wholesale have 4 stages of ripeness that they use to describe fruits, the bottom one being stage 1 with just a pink blush.

Fruits that are half ripe can be harvested and allowed to ripen up, but it has nothing to do with the gentics as was mentioned above.

The person who did and may still do, that's Tom Wagner, harvest seeds from totally unripe fruits, but he uses, well I forget right now but found the thread that has answered almost all of the questions in this one,I think.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...n+fruits+seeds

Carolyn

[WaltRoos]

Originally Posted by KarenO

it will not make a difference in the genetics however saving seeds from unripe fruit may mean that the seeds are immature. Immature seeds have a soft seed coat and do not ferment and store well and the germination rate will therefore be affected.
Best to wait at least until fruit are blushing before saving seeds but best of all to save seeds from healthy disease free plants and mature ripe fruits whenever possible.
KarenO

Gee, what is a " Disease free plant ? " If we are talking Tomato plants, I'm pretty sure I have never had one in my many, many hundreds of producing mature plants.

I save my OP seeds and I ferment them. If the plant is in bad shape I generally will not save seeds from that plant. But, disease free, I can only dream about those. And I mostly grow Hybrids. OK, I do reuse my growing mix in my containers. : ))

walt