Tell me about Determinates

[Ruby]

So I'm staring at my garden and puzzling over what's going to happen with the determinates I've planted ("Super Bush" from Renee's Seeds).

All of the seeds were started at the same time, but I'm staggering the transplantings so they'll have fruit at different times. Is my thinking correct?

More specifically:
Is fruit production triggered by reaching a certain size/height?
Or environmental conditions?
Or is it the days since it's been transplanted?
Where will the tomatoes be located? On the top?
Are they just toast after the fruit comes or can you cut them back for a second bloom?
Do they really not need to be caged/staked?

I guess I could just wait a few months and see the mystery unfold, but I'd rather you guys tell me about it.

[Tomstrees]

I had one det. plant last year: Silvery Fir Tree.

After the plant produced all spring, it stopped during the summer.
Then, come fall, it started producing again (but toms were smaller).
If we didn't like them, I would have pulled it
(I know guys, most of you think its a "spitter").

I did stake it because it got fruit heavy . ...

I'm mostly an ind. guy but see can the benefits of det. plants ~

~ Tom

[Soilsniffer]

Super Bush. A project of mine. I'm planting a bunch this year, some from an old Renee's packet, others from seed I saved last year.

I thought the flesh was way too tough to just pick and eat. Lousy mouth feel. So, if that characteristic shows up again this year, I'll just cut 'em up and roast 'em for sauce. Which is perfect, as I think the flavor of Super Bush is *perfect* for pizza.

To address a couple of your questions:

Is fruit production triggered by reaching a certain size/height?
No. I had three Gold Nugget plants produce fruit for me last year, and they were each less than 12" tall. I left 'em in 4" pots WAY too long, I figure. They bore fruit, just 2-5 fruits per plant, that's it. So, bigger is better, but tiny plants WILL produce.

Or environmental conditions?
Yep, that's probably the #1 determinant. And since we have no control over that, you hope for the best and don't think about it again.

Do they really not need to be caged/staked?
Super Bush needs NO caging. Strong, thick stems can support the fruits just fine.

[feldon30]

I think you want cages or at least a good strong stake, but that is based on growing Celebrity and Roma. I have not grown Super Bush nor do I think I will unless I get a disastrously small harvest from my 87% O.P. tomato patch. I am only growing 2 dwarves this spring: New Big Dwarf (which does need support and can reach 5') and Husky Red Cherry (pure curiousity).

[miniedmo]

Here is another stupid question?

I have heard the term determinate and indeterminate used but what exactly does this mean?

Eddie

[Ruby]

Originally Posted by Soilsniffer

I thought the flesh was way too tough to just pick and eat. Lousy mouth feel. So, if that characteristic shows up again this year, I'll just cut 'em up and roast 'em for sauce. Which is perfect, as I think the flavor of Super Bush is *perfect* for pizza.

I guess I'll be making some pizza!

Somehow, I have two packets of the seeds, so I feel it is my duty to give them a chance and hope they work out. One thing I will say, is that the plants are very nice looking so far, which is good because they are on the front patio 8)

And just to clarify...you think they'll set fruit at the same time even if they had different transplant dates?

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by miniedmo

Here is another stupid question?

I have heard the term determinate and indeterminate used but what exactly does this mean?

Eddie

A Determine growth habit is something that was bred into tomatoes specifically for farming. Generally speaking, the plant terminates growing at about 3 1/2 feet on a strong, self-supporting stem. The plant tries to set its fruit all at the same time and then ripen it all at the same time, generally within a narrow 1-2 week window. Grow, then Set Fruit, then Ripen. All very orderly.

This way, farmers can send a machine down the rows of tomato plants and just rip the entire plant out of the ground, shaking the tomatoes into a hopper. They are, of course, all picked green and then sent off to the gas chamber to be magically "ripened". Then they are shipped 2,000 miles in refrigerated trucks which robs any last bit of flavor from the poor things.

Could I be any more bleak?


Indeterminate tomatoes, which are what virtually all tomato varieties were before mass cultivation in the 1900's, grow taller and set and ripen fruit all at the same time. In the ideal climate, indeterminate can set and ripen fruit over a period of several months until summer heat reduces fruit size and quality or until frost. Indeterminate tomatoes naturally sprawl along the ground, but because many people have problems with funguses and soilborne diseases, squirrels, insects, or simply not enough room, I think most folks support their indeterminate tomato plants with staking, cages, the florida weave, etc. to keep the fruit and foliage off the ground.

Indeterminate tomatoes are great for gardeners who have the space and support for them because there is a steady stream of tomatoes, rather than all-at-once production. Indeterminate is not just a size, but a growth habit, which helps to know when to expect fruit and whether it will be all-at-once or staggered.

I'm sure I've boffed something somewhere and will be corrected shortly.

[Ruby]

Originally Posted by miniedmo

Here is another stupid question?

I have heard the term determinate and indeterminate used but what exactly does this mean?

Eddie

In a nutshell:

Determinates - flower and set fruit all at once
Indeterminates - flower and set fruit throughout the season

I think most commercial varieties are determinates, so they can harvest the fruit all at once. Most of the varieties people talk about here are indeterminates.

I'm trying this one out this year because I have a small raised bed and containers, so I don't have room for large plants.

[giardiniere]

Originally Posted by miniedmo

Here is another stupid question?

I have heard the term determinate and indeterminate used but what exactly does this mean?

Eddie

Eddie

Determinate types usually ripen over a short period of time (about 3 to 4 weeks) and their bushes generally do not need staking. I do however use some type of support. They're ideal if you are limited on space.
Indeterminate continue to grow even after the fruit sets and ripen continuously until a frost arrives. It not unusual for mine to get 7'-8' tall.

[montanamato]

In our area, all tomatoes ripen roughly a week before frost...You just get a heck of a bigger return for your effort with a determinate in a shorter climate zone...And many taste as good or beter as indeterminates IMHO...I plant both, but have learned to rely on the determinates to suply the bulk of my harvest in a typical year....In 20 years of growing both together there is not much difference with the first ripening , no matter if plants are staggered or not...Just plant lots of different types and hope for the best...

Jeanne

Also seems as if the determinates and semi determinates put up with heat and drought far better....

[miniedmo]

Thanks for the info you two. I thought it had something to do with the size but did not understand why. Mass production!!!

[jhp]

Hey Ruby, I have some of that Super Bush seed from Renee's too. I'm starting a few for my sister and whoever else wants them. I'm going to keep one or two for myself in a container on my back patio. Most of my garden is in raised beds, but I wanted to try to have some early tomatoes from the super bush. I figured I could manage bringing them inside if it gets cold. I'm going to try to set them outside a bit early.

[Rena]

I am on the lookout for a Det....(transplants) It is nice to have a mass amount all at once. Celebrity is a semi-det so Maybe I will use that.
Black Sea man is the most Det type I have ever grown! It ripes all at once....literally. I did stagger some of those so maybe I will use them for canning salsa. It is short and behaves well. -Rena

[garnetmoth]

I havent grown any determinates recently, but if you can or make sauce or are having a pizza party, its not a bad idea to have a few.

[shelleybean]

To me, the main advantage of determinates is the mass ripening mentioned above. If you plan to make sauce and freeze it or can your tomatoes, this is the way to go, especially if you don't have a lot of space to work with.