Personal Best - 16 yrs!

[JimM_SC]

Dr. Carolyn was kind enough to send Gogosha seeds several years ago. I found out last year that my saved seeds were crossed. I checked the envelope and there were a few seed left - from 1991! I soaked them overnight in plain water and planted 7 seeds on Feb. 25. The first seedling appeared on Mar. 21. I now have 5 healthy seedlings. 5 out of 7 from 16 year old seeds. I feel like a proud new father - actually I became a grandfather for the third time during that same time period!.
Jim - who never ceases to be amazed at the persistence of nature.

[Tomstrees]

Good growing ! Here's to them doing great for you in 07!
Cheers !

~ Tom

[carolyn137]

Jim, you must have gotten those 1991 Gogosha seeds in the very first old seed offer I made at GW, and that was quite a few years ago.

Remember that there was a thread where folks were reporting back their germination data?

I wasn't amazed, but many were, to find out how well some varieties of old seeds remain viable.

In that first seed offer Iisted about 150 varieties from 1991 to 1994 and then in the second seed another 150 from 1995 to about 1997.

Needless to say I have tons of those old seeds still left, but when it came to making my first seed offer here at Tville I listed only varieties from about 2000 thru 2006.

So good going to you.

[bbjm]

That is impressive. I'm still stunned that 1991 was 16 years ago. Time rolls on.

[Ruth_10]

Originally Posted by bbjm

That is impressive. I'm still stunned that 1991 was 16 years ago. Time rolls on.

Don't you know it!

So is poor germination more often due to fermentations gone wrong? Are hearts more difficult to germinate or are problems, should they occur, post-germination?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Ruth_10

Don't you know it!

So is poor germination more often due to fermentations gone wrong? Are hearts more difficult to germinate or are problems, should they occur, post-germination?

Poor germination for seeds can be due to many things Ruth, but in this thread we're talking about seed age alone.

And the problem with seeds as they age is that they become dessicated. So methods that are used, and this was recently discussed in a thread that marypnw started, are directed towards use of rehydration.

Hearts are no different from others when seeds are fresh, but yes, speaking now of very old seeds, I've mentioned here before that the seeds for some of those don't seem to have the long term viabiity that others have and I know Fusion and a few others have seen that as well.

So how do we define old seeds? Not easy to do b/c that also brings up the subject of how seeds are stored, but that too has been discussed quite a bit here.

I can tell you that I have such a large seed collection that all my tomato seeds are stored just at ambient room temp in vials and in plain envelopes.

I do nothing re germination until seeds are perhaps over 5-6 years old and expect in xs of 50% germination at that age. When seeds get to be maybe 6 to 10-12 yo I will double sow. When seeds get over maybe 12 years I will use special magic to enhance germination.

And many times I find when I double sow that everything comes up, almost, and I have to thin out ASAP.

And I only fool around with very old seeds if I'm dealing with a rare variety for which there is no obvious other source.

Good grief, I just looked up and out this panel of 4 low windows in front of me and we have a rather vigorous snow shower going on here. it snowed this past week here and is supposed to spit snow and ice and rain most of this next week.

[Ruth_10]

And the problem with seeds as they age is that they become dessicated.

So, Carolyn, it has always seemed puzzling to me that seeds would still be losing moisture after say, five or ten years. Would not a seed the size of a tomato seed be in equilibrium with the ambient moisture much sooner than that?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Ruth_10

So, Carolyn, it has always seemed puzzling to me that seeds would still be losing moisture after say, five or ten years. Would not a seed the size of a tomato seed be in equilibrium with the ambient moisture much sooner than that?

Ruth, it's one thing to postulate, it's another to observe what happens.

Without any data to point you too all I can say is that in general, the older the seed, the poorer the germination.

I would imagine that it all depends on what the interaction is within the seed as to protein denaturation as well as alteration of DNA, but here I too am speculating as to why germination goes down with seed age.

And since rehydration works pretty well with some older seeds perhaps there is something to the continual dehybradtion of seeds and that equilibration is not reached.

The recommendation for seed storage at freezer temps is to take the moisture level down to 6-8% with silica gel and I don't think that can be achieved at ambient humidity levels.

[Ruth_10]

Loss of germination with age must be a somewhat complex process. That rehydration with water containing salts such as nitrate ion sometimes works when plain water (tap water or de-ionized?) doesn't implies (to me, anyway an enzyme getting turned on or off rather than simple dehydration.

I store my seeds very dry (with Drierite, which gets them much drier than you can get with activated silica gel). They don't require a pre-soak for germination, so dehydration in and of itself doesn't preclude rapid germination. Certainly a lot of protein denaturation is going on as seeds age.

An interesting subject!

[carolyn137]

(That rehydration with water containing salts such as nitrate ion sometimes works when plain water (tap water or de-ionized?) doesn't implies (to me, anyway:smile an enzyme getting turned on or off rather than simple dehydration.)


Ruth, I've tried to find out from several seed physiologists what nitrate ion is known to do re seed germination, and to date, I haven't corresponded with ONE seed person who knows the answer at a molecular level.

So in cases such as this, while there are some of us who like to understand mechanisms, I forget about it and just add some extra nitrate ion which has long been known to aid germination of many kinds of seeds.