Tiny Tim cross?

[Kazedwards]

So I’m growing Tiny Tim again this year from seed I saved a few years ago. I have three plants going that are very crowded. One of the three is quite a bit taller than the other two at just over 2 feet. The other two are close to a foot. They are identical in just about every other way. Fruit size, taste, and even the size of trusses. Is this a cross or is it normal for this variety?
Red is the bigger Tiny Tim. Blue are the shorter ones



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[Notostraca]

Looks like a normal Tiny Tim to me!



My indoor ones are huge now, my lone outdoor Tiny Tim looks like your smaller ones (but with less tomatoes lol).



I think the bigger one is just doing better for some reason, like it is somehow been able to uptake more nutrients?

[Kazedwards]

That’s what I was thinking too. Just wanted make sure before I saved/shared seed. Thank you so much for the help!


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[bower]

Hmmm. That plant is twice the size of the others, and growing in the same environmental conditions. Genetically, growth habit is a complex set of traits which make themselves even harder to evaluate because of their plasticity to environmental conditions. So IMO it wouldn't be safe to assume that there's no genetic difference at play, unless there was an obvious difference in the conditions. I notice that you pruned the lower leaves on the tall plant but not the short ones? The number of leaf nodes before the first flower cluster is an independent trait - I mean it segregates separately from other growth habit traits such as internode length. If you count the number of leaves/nodes on the small plants and find it is different from the tall one, that would positively confirm it is genetically different from them. Internode length (distance between leaves) is harder to evaluate because it's strongly affected by light availability, particularly, and is why indoor plants get leggy or are taller in spite of being genetically the same.



The tall plant could be a sport or it could be a cross. If it's a sport (mutation), all the plants in the next generation would have the same trait making it larger than the typical TT but otherwise the same. If it's a cross, you would get a mixture next generation of traits from both parents. It's actually quite easy to get crosses between red determinates which are never recognized as a cross, but still they take you further and further from the actual parent OP you thought you were growing, and that will affect what the fruit are like as well.


Either way I think you'd be on the safe side to save seed separately and label it 'tall Tiny Tim' - then you'll know by growing it out if it's purely environmental or genetic.

[Kazedwards]

Originally Posted by bower

Hmmm. That plant is twice the size of the others, and growing in the same environmental conditions. Genetically, growth habit is a complex set of traits which make themselves even harder to evaluate because of their plasticity to environmental conditions. So IMO it wouldn't be safe to assume that there's no genetic difference at play, unless there was an obvious difference in the conditions. I notice that you pruned the lower leaves on the tall plant but not the short ones? The number of leaf nodes before the first flower cluster is an independent trait - I mean it segregates separately from other growth habit traits such as internode length. If you count the number of leaves/nodes on the small plants and find it is different from the tall one, that would positively confirm it is genetically different from them. Internode length (distance between leaves) is harder to evaluate because it's strongly affected by light availability, particularly, and is why indoor plants get leggy or are taller in spite of being genetically the same.



The tall plant could be a sport or it could be a cross. If it's a sport (mutation), all the plants in the next generation would have the same trait making it larger than the typical TT but otherwise the same. If it's a cross, you would get a mixture next generation of traits from both parents. It's actually quite easy to get crosses between red determinates which are never recognized as a cross, but still they take you further and further from the actual parent OP you thought you were growing, and that will affect what the fruit are like as well.


Either way I think you'd be on the safe side to save seed separately and label it 'tall Tiny Tim' - then you'll know by growing it out if it's purely environmental or genetic.

Thank you for the info. I actually haven’t pruned those plants at all. The taller and the shorter one on the right shared the same pot and were planted out like that. That might explain why one is taller than the other of those two but not the shorter one on the left that was all by itself. If I save seed from the taller one I’ll kept them separate for sure.

I have a few other off types this year so I’m definitely keeping a close eye out for anything that could be a cross. One of them is Betimes Macbeth that is from saved seed a few years ago. It was planted basically under another plant that year. This year it’s giving about 2” wide round fruit on an indeterminate plant. Not at all right. Then I have what was supposed to be Costoluto Genovese that are round globes. That was from a trade. Old Brooks seems off too. I have very short plants. Maybe 2.5 feet tall with smaller fruit on it. Not sure about that one but I’ll be looking for a new source for both maybe next year.


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