Hybrid vs OP Nutrients

Banadoura · January 24, 2020

Hi All,

I just finished watching a documentary on tomatoes released yesterday in french.

If you understand french, I highly recommend watching it! (https://ici.tou.tv/enquete/S13E15)

@minute 20, they compare the nutrients of hybrid vs OP and it is shocking

They did some taste tests with hybrid varieties and it was disappointing across the board. Apparently the longevity gene interferes with the taste.

The taste is reflective of the nutrients a tomato contains. Good taste = highly nutritious.

I am a bit puzzled

with this as Green Bee is a hybrid variety of tomato that I really enjoyed taste wise last summer. Can anybody shed some light on this theory?

Other tidbits: 75% of seeds sold are hybrid, market controlled by 4 big corporations. India a huge cross breeding ground where farmers are paid $148 per kg of seeds that are resold for hundreds of thousands of dollars in the west! Dirt cheap pricing results in child labor and women getting paid 40% less than men

taboule · January 25, 2020

Marhaba Banadoura, Nice to see you.

The data you show in the picture is astonishing - a bit hard to believe, and as hard to understand. I'd love to hear if there's a good explanation somebody can provide.

The video you linked to isn't available to us in the States (and likely outside of Canada), blocked due to copyrights.

Have you started your seeds yet? I'm thinking either this weekend or next, starting with onions.

Take care.

slugworth · January 25, 2020

the youtube video is gone also
enquete/S13E15

Banadoura · January 25, 2020

Quote:

Originally Posted by taboule

Marhaba Banadoura, Nice to see you.

The data you show in the picture is astonishing - a bit hard to believe, and as hard to understand. I'd love to hear if there's a good explanation somebody can provide.

The video you linked to isn't available to us in the States (and likely outside of Canada), blocked due to copyrights.

Have you started your seeds yet? I'm thinking either this weekend or next, starting with onions.

Take care.

Ya hala Taboule,

I tried to find a way to download it so that I can share it but to no avail

It was a great documentary....Non Canadians with a VPN service should be able to watch it.

I did, I have 4 Micro Dwarf varieties growing since early January, I improved my table setup and my objective is to eat tomatoes from these 4 sometime in April. If it works, the plan is to start running a winter tomato garden with 8-10 micro dwarf plants under T5HO lights starting next September.

For the summer plants, I only seeded a few maglia rosas a couple of days ago. The bulk will be sown around mid-February.

Cheers,

MissS · January 25, 2020

Thank you Banadoura for this post. It brings some questions to my mind since I can not see the video. Were all the plants both hybrid and heirloom grown under the same conditions? Were all in pots in a greenhouse or outdoors. I can not see why ALL hybrids would have inferior taste. I would think it has to be only those bred for shipping,those with the longevity gene and uniform fruit with thick skin. You know the baseball things that they call tomatoes. I have had plenty of hybrids that do taste good but then they are poor shippers. I would assume that your Green Bee is a softer tomato that does not ship well.

Nan_PA_6b · January 26, 2020

I can't see why every hybrid would have decreased nutrition. If I cross Brandywine and Cherokee Purple, will the resulting F1 hybrid have less nutrition? Probably not.

The reason for the reduced nutrition could be something other than genetic. If the hybrids were picked when green and gassed to force ripening, it might account for less nutrition.

Or perhaps it is some combination of genes used in commercial hybrids that reduces nutrition. Perhaps the genes for long-keeping, or not bruising easily, or whatever. But surely it wouldn't apply to every F1 hybrid. I'd be interested to know which varieties of tomato were tested.

Banadoura · January 26, 2020

Hi MissS,

The work is done in 2 countries, Israel (greenhouses) and India (in the fields)

In Israel, they asked the professor how many crosses they need to make to have a commercial tomato ready and the answer was up to 400 per year and that it can take up to 3 years to have that variety ready. Not sure how it works but that sounds like a lot of crossings.

Green Bee is a long shelf life Hybrid that tastes good. That's why I was puzzled.

Hi Nan_PA

There's a study that states that the better a tomato tastes the more nutrients it has. That taste is a reflection of the nutrients it holds. Which might explain why the hybridized tomatoes with poor or no taste that are sold commercially don't hold as much in terms of nutrients.

I actually found the paper they quote here: https://hos.ifas.ufl.edu/public/klee...%20Science.pdf

In tomato, almost all of the important flavor-related volatiles are
derived from essential nutrients.

teyger · January 26, 2020

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nan_PA_6b

I can't see why every hybrid would have decreased nutrition. If I cross Brandywine and Cherokee Purple, will the resulting F1 hybrid have less nutrition? Probably not.

The reason for the reduced nutrition could be something other than genetic. If the hybrids were picked when green and gassed to force ripening, it might account for less nutrition.

Or perhaps it is some combination of genes used in commercial hybrids that reduces nutrition. Perhaps the genes for long-keeping, or not bruising easily, or whatever. But surely it wouldn't apply to every F1 hybrid. I'd be interested to know which varieties of tomato were tested.

He wasn't saying EVERY hybrid would be less nutritious. When a hybrid is created for LONGEVITY it is less nutritious. You wouldn't cross Brandywine and Cherokee Purple to produce a hybrid for long shelf life.

Father'sDaughter · January 27, 2020

Green Bee was developed by a small scale breeder who likely made taste one of the priorities. The breeders for the big guys are probably handed a list of priorities by corporate execs, and that's what they develop.

zipcode · January 27, 2020

As someone once said, plant nutrition is usually more important than variety for both taste and nutrients.
There are some hybrids that are aggressively made for maximum production at all costs to keep those cheap produce in the store so cheap (and they are impressively cheap I must say, like 1.5 eur per kilo in the winter, I can't understand how they cover the costs for heating and artificial light). But most new commercial hybrids certainly don't forget about the taste in their breeding.

This is probably just one of those comparison where they take the best one has to offer vs the worst of the other.

Fred Hempel · January 27, 2020

Small scale breeder?

You'll be hearing from my corporate lawyers...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter

Green Bee was developed by a small scale breeder who likely made taste one of the priorities. The breeders for the big guys are probably handed a list of priorities by corporate execs, and that's what they develop.

Fusion_power · January 28, 2020

From the responses in this thread, a bit of genetics might help with understanding why flavor is so poor with most commercial hybrids.

1. They are bred to be hard with thick skins so they will ship with low damage. This does not necessarily compromise flavor, bit it changes the texture which to most of is an important part of the taste.

2. They breed hybrids with the Uniform Ripening gene which restricts chlorophyll in the fruit. Lack of chlorophyll means lack of photosynthesis which is kind of like putting low octane gas in a race car. Hint, it is not a race car any more.

3. Hybrids are bred to be highly productive. This is overall a positive, but it has an effect on the plant's ability to produce photosynthate and absorb nutrients from the soil. More fruit load equals less nutrients on a per fruit basis.

4. Hybrids usually have one of the high pigment genes to boost lycopene content. This has the effect of turning the fruit red before it is fully ripe. They can then ship the unripe but red tomato as a vine ripe fruit even though it is not legitimately ripe.

5. Hybrids are usually bred with one or more of the ripening inhibitor genes which modifies the ethylene ripening biopath. The net effect we all know and recognize is a tomato that can sit on a shelf for months without ripening.

6. Hybrids are usually grown under less than ideal soil conditions. The side effect is fruit with less flavor and less nutrients.

7. They may use one or more of the pink fruit genes in the hybrid. This affects flavor in a different way since the gene for pink is in the flavonoid biopath. I other words, you don't just get a change in skin color, you also get changes in the flavor profile. This does not mean pink fruits taste bad. It means that the gene for pink has to be working in concert with some other genes to produce the phenomenal flavor of a Brandywine Sudduth tomato. Those "other genes" are not present in most hybrids.

Have you tried eating a tomato with too intense flavor? For me, Costoluto Genovese has a flavor that is too intense in some ways. I have to put it on a sandwich to enjoy it.

Banadoura · January 28, 2020

Thank you Fusion Power for shedding some light on this subject

Father'sDaughter · January 29, 2020

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

Small scale breeder?

You'll be hearing from my corporate lawyers...

Sorry!!! Should have said one of the the most excellent breeders...��

I keep forgetting some of the biggies in the seed/ tomato field take the time to come hang out with us here on the forum.

January 24, 2020	#1
Banadoura Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Laval, Quebec - Zone 5B Posts: 144	Hybrid vs OP Nutrients Hi All, I just finished watching a documentary on tomatoes released yesterday in french. If you understand french, I highly recommend watching it! (https://ici.tou.tv/enquete/S13E15) @minute 20, they compare the nutrients of hybrid vs OP and it is shocking They did some taste tests with hybrid varieties and it was disappointing across the board. Apparently the longevity gene interferes with the taste. The taste is reflective of the nutrients a tomato contains. Good taste = highly nutritious. I am a bit puzzled with this as Green Bee is a hybrid variety of tomato that I really enjoyed taste wise last summer. Can anybody shed some light on this theory? Other tidbits: 75% of seeds sold are hybrid, market controlled by 4 big corporations. India a huge cross breeding ground where farmers are paid $148 per kg of seeds that are resold for hundreds of thousands of dollars in the west! Dirt cheap pricing results in child labor and women getting paid 40% less than men

January 25, 2020	#5
MissS Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 3,150	Thank you Banadoura for this post. It brings some questions to my mind since I can not see the video. Were all the plants both hybrid and heirloom grown under the same conditions? Were all in pots in a greenhouse or outdoors. I can not see why ALL hybrids would have inferior taste. I would think it has to be only those bred for shipping,those with the longevity gene and uniform fruit with thick skin. You know the baseball things that they call tomatoes. I have had plenty of hybrids that do taste good but then they are poor shippers. I would assume that your Green Bee is a softer tomato that does not ship well. __________________ ~ Patti ~

January 25, 2020	#2
taboule Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: MA Posts: 903	Marhaba Banadoura, Nice to see you. The data you show in the picture is astonishing - a bit hard to believe, and as hard to understand. I'd love to hear if there's a good explanation somebody can provide. The video you linked to isn't available to us in the States (and likely outside of Canada), blocked due to copyrights. Have you started your seeds yet? I'm thinking either this weekend or next, starting with onions. Take care.

January 25, 2020	#3
slugworth Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: connecticut,usa Posts: 1,152	the youtube video is gone also enquete/S13E15

January 26, 2020	#6
Nan_PA_6b Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 3,194	I can't see why every hybrid would have decreased nutrition. If I cross Brandywine and Cherokee Purple, will the resulting F1 hybrid have less nutrition? Probably not. The reason for the reduced nutrition could be something other than genetic. If the hybrids were picked when green and gassed to force ripening, it might account for less nutrition. Or perhaps it is some combination of genes used in commercial hybrids that reduces nutrition. Perhaps the genes for long-keeping, or not bruising easily, or whatever. But surely it wouldn't apply to every F1 hybrid. I'd be interested to know which varieties of tomato were tested.

January 27, 2020	#9
Father'sDaughter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: MA/NH Border Posts: 4,919	Green Bee was developed by a small scale breeder who likely made taste one of the priorities. The breeders for the big guys are probably handed a list of priorities by corporate execs, and that's what they develop.

January 27, 2020	#10
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	As someone once said, plant nutrition is usually more important than variety for both taste and nutrients. There are some hybrids that are aggressively made for maximum production at all costs to keep those cheap produce in the store so cheap (and they are impressively cheap I must say, like 1.5 eur per kilo in the winter, I can't understand how they cover the costs for heating and artificial light). But most new commercial hybrids certainly don't forget about the taste in their breeding. This is probably just one of those comparison where they take the best one has to offer vs the worst of the other.

January 28, 2020	#12
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	From the responses in this thread, a bit of genetics might help with understanding why flavor is so poor with most commercial hybrids. 1. They are bred to be hard with thick skins so they will ship with low damage. This does not necessarily compromise flavor, bit it changes the texture which to most of is an important part of the taste. 2. They breed hybrids with the Uniform Ripening gene which restricts chlorophyll in the fruit. Lack of chlorophyll means lack of photosynthesis which is kind of like putting low octane gas in a race car. Hint, it is not a race car any more. 3. Hybrids are bred to be highly productive. This is overall a positive, but it has an effect on the plant's ability to produce photosynthate and absorb nutrients from the soil. More fruit load equals less nutrients on a per fruit basis. 4. Hybrids usually have one of the high pigment genes to boost lycopene content. This has the effect of turning the fruit red before it is fully ripe. They can then ship the unripe but red tomato as a vine ripe fruit even though it is not legitimately ripe. 5. Hybrids are usually bred with one or more of the ripening inhibitor genes which modifies the ethylene ripening biopath. The net effect we all know and recognize is a tomato that can sit on a shelf for months without ripening. 6. Hybrids are usually grown under less than ideal soil conditions. The side effect is fruit with less flavor and less nutrients. 7. They may use one or more of the pink fruit genes in the hybrid. This affects flavor in a different way since the gene for pink is in the flavonoid biopath. I other words, you don't just get a change in skin color, you also get changes in the flavor profile. This does not mean pink fruits taste bad. It means that the gene for pink has to be working in concert with some other genes to produce the phenomenal flavor of a Brandywine Sudduth tomato. Those "other genes" are not present in most hybrids. Have you tried eating a tomato with too intense flavor? For me, Costoluto Genovese has a flavor that is too intense in some ways. I have to put it on a sandwich to enjoy it.