Disturbing compost conundrum...

KCMO_Don · February 25, 2006

I am sure this won't be an issue but I wanted to consult you "experts" first

my raised beds are filled with about 50% finished compost, and 50% soil but there is also quite a large portion of dry shredded white oak leaves, and a little straw in it. I just read in an old book that leaves contain a "growth inhibitor" unless they are completely broken down.
This really concerns me as I don't think that my leaves will be "finished" by planting time in 8 weeks or so.
They have been turned under for several weeks so far, and even in this cold weather the worms are working away at them.
BTW I try and turn this mixture about every 7-10 days, keep it moist and covered with clear plastic with vents cut into it to keep it moist and warmer.

Anyone here ever hear of this or have experience planting in a mix that has unfinished leaves in it?

Thanks a lot!

jerseyjohn61 · February 25, 2006

KCMO, not sure of any growth inhibitors, but bacterial
decay underground can rob the soil of trapped
oxygen needed by plant roots. Better let some of
heavy-weights here chime in on this....JJ61

Suze · February 25, 2006

Hmmm, tough one. Some folks might say 'oh, it's all natural stuff, it will work out, etc., etc.' -- and yet others would say 'you screwed up, and all those leaves will tie up nitrogen whilst they are breaking down'.

Well, I have actually had new beds demonstrably tie up nitrogen before, while the plants I put in suffered for it until I added a high nitrogen fert carefully around the base of the plants. Not saying that would definitely be your experience, though... hard to say, really.

If I were in your situation, I think I'd probably err on the side of caution and try to make a just a bit of an informal soil pocket for each transplant (let's say 4-6 inches deep, feathering/blending that pocket out about 6-8 inches or so from the plant.

Don't make the soil pocket too rich, though, or the plant roots won't want to leave that area. Maybe just a mix of bagged compost or topsoil mixed by about half with native soil.

bully · February 25, 2006

Quote:

If I were in your situation, I think I'd probably err on the side of caution and try to make a just a bit of an informal soil pocket for each transplant (let's say 4-6 inches deep, feathering/blending that pocket out about 6-8 inches or so from the plant.

Very good advice ...IMHO

bully

TomatoDon · February 25, 2006

I always heard that tomotoes grown in the same spot each year were far more suseptible to disease and nematodes. Therefore I do what Suze said, but have the whole even bigger. It's about 18 inches wide and 18 inches deep, at least I eyeball it for that. I fill it with new bagged stuff, and it seems to work fine.

Don

TomatoDon · February 25, 2006

A compost pile is, I guess, the only major gardening thing I haven't added. But I always had good access to free stuff, already broken down, especially when I was field trialing and had horses. But that was sorta before my real gardening days. But Pappy (who I've mentioned here before) sure did love to come out and scoop up a pick-up load for his tomatoes. The gin trash I mention here is a favored "soil" here with gardeners, and it has more of the texture and appearance of just pure, rich, black topsoil. The tilth is okay.

I see leaves mentioned over and over here for starting a compost pile. That reminds me of the duff in the woods, expecially along wooded creeks, and that is a good source I should have already tapped into. Plenty of it out there right now if I'd just take the time to do get it.

I thought wheat straw and hay would be mentioned more often, but it's not. Maybe it takes too long to break down. But grass clippings seem to be favored. Maybe I can try that this year. Some mowers here in town have the attachment that vacuums up all the clippings, and maybe I can get some that way.

I have neighbors around town with what looks to be hundreds of sacks of raked leaves in the late fall. Maybe that would be a good place for me to get started on an operation like that in the future.

Don

MsCowpea · February 25, 2006

I'm in the 'don't worry' camp as you used shredded leaves--just monitor your plants for nitrogen def. What sort of fertilizer are you planning on using once you plant? I would also get an inexpensive soil test done too.

BUT as you are turning and turning your bed anyway why not throw in some alfalfa meal? (as I am not sure how much a 'large portion' of leaves is -so this would add more nitrogen) This article talks about the breakdown of carbon-rich crop residue- maybe it will make you feel better--as you added leaves quite a while ago and still have weeks to go. Read under Immobilization heading.
http://extension.missouri.edu/explor...ils/g09174.htm

PS I don't think I would 'vent' the plastic- I think it would get warmer and stay warmer w/o vents (plus stay moister) . When we solarize the soil down here with clear plastic even the edges are supposed to be sealed down. (can you duct tape those vents up,

, one more use for duct tape). As a matter of fact a recent study showed that if you add a second layer of plastic suspended above the first it really gets hotter. That's for nematode control though-- you are just trying to get your shredded leaves to break down.

http://extension.missouri.edu/explor...ort/g06950.htm

landarc · February 25, 2006

Some leaves do contain chemicals that can inhibit growth, although, I do not know specifics about your leaves. I would agree with above statements that the bigger problem would likely be nitrogen being tied up in the decay process and not being avaiable to your plants. Erring on adding a little bit of nitrogen to your soil a few weeks prior to planting would be a good preventive strategy.

We typically do not see nitrogen binding in soil as a result of decay unless the decaying matter forms a significant (20 to 30% by volume) portion of the soil section. pH also plays a role in this equation, and oak leaves could throw the soil chemical balance a little in that regard.

Bob

PaulF · February 25, 2006

I have always been under the impression that oak leaves, especially when shredded, are very beneficial to growth. The added tilth and oxygenation....the opposite of compaction....offsets the nitrogen depletion. It does sound reasonable as stated above, to plant in a pocket of non-compost soil.

The leaves I do know that absolutely hinder growth in tomatoes are walnut leaves. They have a chemical in the leaves, wood and nut that even in a minute quantity that inhibits growth.

KCMO_Don · February 25, 2006

Thank you all for posting replies.
I went out today and turned the "in ground" bed, and was AMAZED

at the number of FAT earthworms I found!!!! Literaly 100-150 within a square foot. Adults and babies alike.
I took about 80-100 of these and sprinkled them into my raised beds after "fluffing and turning them.
I am just getting SO antsie to start my garden this year!

Thanks again for taking time to give me your input!

creister · March 6, 2006

Add some free coffee grounds from Starbucks in with those leaves, and the worms will go nuts, plus you add nitrogen. Pecan leaves, Oak, Maple, Mulberry, and Mesquite have never given me any trouble in my garden. Alfalfa pellets are another cheap source of good fertilizer.

Tomstrees · March 6, 2006

I add all shredded leaves
(Oak&Maple) into my soil/garden every
fall ~ haven't had any problems ~
I just fluff it up in the spring
and seldom find any evidence of
what I've added ...
Those critters under the soil
just do their thing all winter ~

Tom

February 25, 2006	#1
KCMO_Don Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: KANSAS Posts: 223	Disturbing compost conundrum... I am sure this won't be an issue but I wanted to consult you "experts" first my raised beds are filled with about 50% finished compost, and 50% soil but there is also quite a large portion of dry shredded white oak leaves, and a little straw in it. I just read in an old book that leaves contain a "growth inhibitor" unless they are completely broken down. This really concerns me as I don't think that my leaves will be "finished" by planting time in 8 weeks or so. They have been turned under for several weeks so far, and even in this cold weather the worms are working away at them. BTW I try and turn this mixture about every 7-10 days, keep it moist and covered with clear plastic with vents cut into it to keep it moist and warmer. Anyone here ever hear of this or have experience planting in a mix that has unfinished leaves in it? Thanks a lot! __________________ GIGGITY - GIGGITY

February 25, 2006	#5
TomatoDon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MS Posts: 1,523	I always heard that tomotoes grown in the same spot each year were far more suseptible to disease and nematodes. Therefore I do what Suze said, but have the whole even bigger. It's about 18 inches wide and 18 inches deep, at least I eyeball it for that. I fill it with new bagged stuff, and it seems to work fine. Don __________________ Zone 7B, N. MS

February 25, 2006	#6
TomatoDon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MS Posts: 1,523	A compost pile is, I guess, the only major gardening thing I haven't added. But I always had good access to free stuff, already broken down, especially when I was field trialing and had horses. But that was sorta before my real gardening days. But Pappy (who I've mentioned here before) sure did love to come out and scoop up a pick-up load for his tomatoes. The gin trash I mention here is a favored "soil" here with gardeners, and it has more of the texture and appearance of just pure, rich, black topsoil. The tilth is okay. I see leaves mentioned over and over here for starting a compost pile. That reminds me of the duff in the woods, expecially along wooded creeks, and that is a good source I should have already tapped into. Plenty of it out there right now if I'd just take the time to do get it. I thought wheat straw and hay would be mentioned more often, but it's not. Maybe it takes too long to break down. But grass clippings seem to be favored. Maybe I can try that this year. Some mowers here in town have the attachment that vacuums up all the clippings, and maybe I can get some that way. I have neighbors around town with what looks to be hundreds of sacks of raked leaves in the late fall. Maybe that would be a good place for me to get started on an operation like that in the future. Don __________________ Zone 7B, N. MS

February 25, 2006	#7
MsCowpea Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: S. FLorida / Zone 10 Posts: 369	I'm in the 'don't worry' camp as you used shredded leaves--just monitor your plants for nitrogen def. What sort of fertilizer are you planning on using once you plant? I would also get an inexpensive soil test done too. BUT as you are turning and turning your bed anyway why not throw in some alfalfa meal? (as I am not sure how much a 'large portion' of leaves is -so this would add more nitrogen) This article talks about the breakdown of carbon-rich crop residue- maybe it will make you feel better--as you added leaves quite a while ago and still have weeks to go. Read under Immobilization heading. http://extension.missouri.edu/explor...ils/g09174.htm PS I don't think I would 'vent' the plastic- I think it would get warmer and stay warmer w/o vents (plus stay moister) . When we solarize the soil down here with clear plastic even the edges are supposed to be sealed down. (can you duct tape those vents up, , one more use for duct tape). As a matter of fact a recent study showed that if you add a second layer of plastic suspended above the first it really gets hotter. That's for nematode control though-- you are just trying to get your shredded leaves to break down. http://extension.missouri.edu/explor...ort/g06950.htm __________________ "When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work." Carl Huffaker

February 25, 2006	#8
landarc Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Left Coasty Posts: 964	Some leaves do contain chemicals that can inhibit growth, although, I do not know specifics about your leaves. I would agree with above statements that the bigger problem would likely be nitrogen being tied up in the decay process and not being avaiable to your plants. Erring on adding a little bit of nitrogen to your soil a few weeks prior to planting would be a good preventive strategy. We typically do not see nitrogen binding in soil as a result of decay unless the decaying matter forms a significant (20 to 30% by volume) portion of the soil section. pH also plays a role in this equation, and oak leaves could throw the soil chemical balance a little in that regard. Bob __________________ Lets see...$10 for Worth and $5 for Fusion, man. Tomatoes are expensive! Bob

February 25, 2006	#2
jerseyjohn61 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Central New Jersey Z/6 Posts: 554	KCMO, not sure of any growth inhibitors, but bacterial decay underground can rob the soil of trapped oxygen needed by plant roots. Better let some of heavy-weights here chime in on this....JJ61

February 25, 2006	#3
Suze Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 3,027	Hmmm, tough one. Some folks might say 'oh, it's all natural stuff, it will work out, etc., etc.' -- and yet others would say 'you screwed up, and all those leaves will tie up nitrogen whilst they are breaking down'. Well, I have actually had new beds demonstrably tie up nitrogen before, while the plants I put in suffered for it until I added a high nitrogen fert carefully around the base of the plants. Not saying that would definitely be your experience, though... hard to say, really. If I were in your situation, I think I'd probably err on the side of caution and try to make a just a bit of an informal soil pocket for each transplant (let's say 4-6 inches deep, feathering/blending that pocket out about 6-8 inches or so from the plant. Don't make the soil pocket too rich, though, or the plant roots won't want to leave that area. Maybe just a mix of bagged compost or topsoil mixed by about half with native soil.

February 25, 2006	#9
PaulF Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brownville, Ne Posts: 3,296	I have always been under the impression that oak leaves, especially when shredded, are very beneficial to growth. The added tilth and oxygenation....the opposite of compaction....offsets the nitrogen depletion. It does sound reasonable as stated above, to plant in a pocket of non-compost soil. The leaves I do know that absolutely hinder growth in tomatoes are walnut leaves. They have a chemical in the leaves, wood and nut that even in a minute quantity that inhibits growth.

February 25, 2006	#10
KCMO_Don Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: KANSAS Posts: 223	Thank you Thank you all for posting replies. I went out today and turned the "in ground" bed, and was AMAZED at the number of FAT earthworms I found!!!! Literaly 100-150 within a square foot. Adults and babies alike. I took about 80-100 of these and sprinkled them into my raised beds after "fluffing and turning them. I am just getting SO antsie to start my garden this year! Thanks again for taking time to give me your input! __________________ GIGGITY - GIGGITY

March 6, 2006	#11
creister Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Abilene, TX zone 7 Posts: 1,478	Add some free coffee grounds from Starbucks in with those leaves, and the worms will go nuts, plus you add nitrogen. Pecan leaves, Oak, Maple, Mulberry, and Mesquite have never given me any trouble in my garden. Alfalfa pellets are another cheap source of good fertilizer.

March 6, 2006	#12
Tomstrees Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NJ Bayshore Posts: 3,848	I add all shredded leaves (Oak&Maple) into my soil/garden every fall ~ haven't had any problems ~ I just fluff it up in the spring and seldom find any evidence of what I've added ... Those critters under the soil just do their thing all winter ~ Tom __________________ My green thumb came only as a result of the mistakes I made while learning to see things from the plant's point of view. ~ H. Fred Ale