SEED-SAVING...

[ROB TWO-HAWKS]

T-VILLE

...I've been saving tomato seed many years very-successfully & with great-germination. My old method involved adding a small amount of water to the pulp & stirring occasionally.This developed a white fungal layer but it did'nt build-up much ...due to the stirring.

Last year & this I've tried the ''anaerobic'' fermentation method that bypasses stirring & adding extra water. The white fungal-layer is there...but so is a.. ''Black-Layer''.. growing atop this. Curious if this is standard with this method or not? ....I'm aware that black mold/fungus is a ..''warning-sign''.. in other fermented products such as cheese & beer...so can anyone tell me what's-going-on-here? Sanitation is good & the fruit are sound & healthy. I lost many seedlings this year to fungus gnats...so darn if I'll also lose my good seed stock as well. And...unless this is ''normal''..I plan on returning to the ''old'' method very soon.

Thanks for any info/help here!
ROB TWO-HAWKS

[Medbury Gardens]

For me when the white fungal layer just starts to turn black, which is normally in three days thats when i then sieve and dry the seed. I think if its left to long and it goes black, it cann`t be good for the seed as you are doing this to remove the pulp.
Richard

[ROB TWO-HAWKS]

Richard ...Thanks for the feedback & yes,I agree. I've been going by C.Male's recommendation that seed should ferment...''at least 5 days(longer if day-temps are below 80 degrees F).''
My brew also began to ''darken'' around day3...so as you suggested...I'll start sieving about then. Last nite did a quick-google on this & most sites were saying to sieve & rinse around day3 also.
With my old ''stir & dilute'' method...I usually went 5-7 days with no problems...but this method may have different requirements.
Thanks again! ROB

[carolyn137]

Rob, the color of the top layer is dependent on which spores of which fungi drop in so it can be any color at all depending on the vegetative grown of those spores to mycelia and what the color of the new spores are.

I ignore it totally.

And I still prefer the fermentation method and I always dilute out the pulp if it's too thick.

[ROB TWO-HAWKS]

Carolyn ...I strained & dried the seed today. While doing so I noticed all the fungi came off easily & none was attached to the seeds...so I'm sure it's-fine. I also grasp the need to dilute a thicker-pulp...and that whatever fungi show-up...are environment-dependent.
So...I'll continue with this method & give it a good trial. Meanwhile,do you still recommend the 5 days (or more) for fermentation? Thanks for getting-back!

P.S. The F-2's of ..''Wins All x Old German''.. are delicious! Also... a good yield & beautiful fruit. Looks promising.

ROB

[carolyn137]

Meanwhile,do you still recommend the 5 days (or more) for fermentation? Thanks for getting-back!

****

In my locale I've never had luck with good fermentations at less than 5 days but the time it takes to get good complete fermentation is really dependent on the temperature and the consistency of the pulp in my experience.

[troad]

Carolyn,
Do you use a bleach soak after fermenting like I read Fusion Power does?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by troad

Carolyn,
Do you use a bleach soak after fermenting like I read Fusion Power does?

Darrel isn't the only one who uses a quick bleach soak but I've never found it necessary with my seeds.

I don't know if it's a help with diseases such as Fusarium and Verticillium, systemic diseases that I don't have problems with, well maybe Vert once in a blue moon, but I know it's not necessary to help rid the seeds of foliage pathogens b'c I've never seen any increase in those diseases after germination of unbleached seeds meaning there was no seedborne transmission and I certainly do save seeds from fruits that are off plants with foliage diseases.



The above pertains to my area and the diseases I see and my experience saving seeds over a very long time.

But if you think it['s worthwhile, then by all means try it. Some use the bleach right after the initial processing while others don't soak until they're ready to sow the seeds.

[TZ-OH6]

Am I wrong in thinking that "fermentation" is just to dissolve the gel away from the seeds to get clean seeds? I have done this with very clean gelled seeds (a couple of initial water rinses to get bits tissue out) resulting in no gunk on top, and seed could be swirled free of gell residue in 3-4 warm days.

Also, fermentation is an anaerobic process, and I'm certain that I shake and swirl the rotting soup enough that it is definitely aerobic breakdown going on, not fermentation, so is Fermentation just a word for letting the gel rot off the seeds, or is my daily shaking and swirling not as good for the seeds as letting them just sit and go anoxic?

[carolyn137]

Also, fermentation is an anaerobic process, and I'm certain that I shake and swirl the rotting soup enough that it is definitely aerobic breakdown going on, not fermentation, so is Fermentation just a word for letting the gel rot off the seeds, or is my daily shaking and swirling not as good for the seeds as letting them just sit and go anoxic?

****

The definition of fermentation in most systems is that it's an anaerobic process but the fermentation of tomato gunk is initially areobic, then anaerobic. Whether you stir or not seems to make no difference according to many folks. I don't stir b'c I want to maintain anaerobic conditions after a good fungal mat has developed and that has to do with the end products of anaerobic vs aerobic conditions.

The info that's been around for a long time says the following about fermentation to process tomato seeds:

1) The fermentation degrades the gel capsules and I've found that that is very true as long as the fermentation is allowed to go to completion.

2)The fungal mat allows for antibiotics to be made which can kill the bacterial pathogens. maybe true for adventitious foliage pathogens but not for systemic ones which are in the endosperm and need hot water treatment.
And it also depends on which specific fungo form the mat as I see it.

3)The acid end products of fermentation can inactivate pathogenic viruses. I don't know of any data to confirm that but I wouldn't discount it either.

There's a parallel thread in the General Discussion area going on right now and much of the same subject material is being discussed in both threads.

[troad]

Carolyn,
Thank you for the reply. Can you tell me if "Gray Mold" can be transmitted by seed?
From Cornell the following about Botrytis: The fungus overwinters as sclerotia or as mycelium in plant debris and may be seedborne as spores or mycelium in a few crops.

Doesn't specify if tomatoes are one of the "few crops". I have had problems with Powdery Mildew before but this year I had had some plants drop fruit with mold on the stem end and a watery mushy interior. The fruit look like the pictures from Cornell and I believe my diagnosis of Gray Mold is correct. Any way I do not want to risk saving nor passing on seeds with this problem. Would a bleach rinse kill the spores if any are present on the seeds? Also, would bleach kill the over wintering spores in my hoop house?

[TZ-OH6]

Thanks Carolyn,

Thats what I thought...just gets the gel off. I have enough respect for pathogens that I'll choose 20 min in an autoclave (or nasty chemicals if I want the seed to survive) over some floating fungal gunk any day. Soil decay fungi cohabitate/ interact with bacteria with no problem so "Antibiotic" is probably just wishful thinking.