Spudleaf W.

michael johnson · April 3, 2006

I am curios, what is it about potato leaf plants that attracts so many of you to grow them almost to the exclusion of other types, ( Spudleaf W, ) in particular seems to favour them above anything else, is it the flavour, growth habit, desease resistance, etc.

I might become a convert to spudleafs if the details are interesting enough.

**carolyn137** · April 3, 2006

Many folks start collections where they concentrate on certain varieties.

Bill ( Spudleaf) long ago decided to collect PL varieties.

Others I know collect Amish varieties, or heart shaped varieties, or varieties from a certain country, or whatever.

As to PL varieties, I grow them, yes, and like them, yes, at least most of them, b'c I happen to like the leaf form visually, and for me PL varieties have shown greater tolerance to most foliage diseases and I've suggested that that could be due to possibly a thicker epidermis, without having any data whatsoever to back up that comment.

But not everyone does see the same increased tolerance to foliage diseases that I see with most PL varieties.

But do I see anything special re taste of PL's as opposed to RL's? No I don't, as a division based on leaf form alone.

Most PL's are large pinks, I said most,

, and Omar's Lebanese or Large PInk Bulgarian, for instance, both RL's, can taste much better than lots of PL pinks I've grown.

So it's an individual choice as to what a person wishes to concentrate on in terms of developing a specialized collection of varieties.

MsCowpea · April 3, 2006

I am one of those Carolyn speaks of who doesn't see any additional disease resistance with PL at all. I have a perfect opportunity to observe both leaf types as they are planted as a second crop right along side diseased and dying plants of the first crop. In this setting disease pressures are rampant. A lot of the potato leaf plants actually get diseased rather quickly even before the others. But both regular and PL are getting foliar diseases. (I have not sprayed with a fungicide.)

I remember reading somewhere that researchers were looking into, not the thickness of the leaf as Carolyn mentioned, but the HAIRS on the leaf as a possible explanation of some degree of natural resistance to foliar diseases. So you could have either regular leaf or potato leaf that had a denser plant hair characteristic that could maybe explain the difference in tolerance to disease that a person may observe in their garden. Right now I have some very healthy looking regular leaf heirlooms right next to PL plants already succumbing to disease. And of course, hybrids have no advantage when it comes to foliar diseases as has been mentioned many times before.

the only link I could find discusses plant hairs in general but does have a a good definition of terms if you scroll to the bottom:
http://www.backyardnature.net/hairs.htm

travis · April 3, 2006

For me spudleaves are just a curiosity I guess because growing up I never saw any potato leaf tomatoes.

Now I think potato leaf tomatoes are attractive and I'm still curious about all the variations of "potato leaf" shapes that seem to qualify. Some are singular, round shaped. Some are have longer, more slender leaves. And some even appear to have the vestiges of serrations.

Then there are some leaf shapes that fall somewhere between PL and RL in my view. Like MHVF Hybrid 785 from Ferry Morse (sold commercially as Super Boy) which has a few very rounded serrations not unlike some OP varieties touted as PL. 785 produces some very vigorous seedlings, but I'm not familiar with them in the garden just yet (first year to try them).

For me, all potato leaf types are curious in their attractiveness very similarly to rugose leaf types. That's the good news.

Bad news is that not one single potato leaf variety that I've started is as vigorous as the top few regular leaf types I've started this year ... same cell trays, same growing media, same planting times, same heating pads, same lighting, watering, etc. The regular leaf seedlings are generally blowing their potato leaf cousins away!

This is true even by types. Polish Linguisa, Polish Pastel, Heidi, and Rio Grande (supposed to be rugose) are all way ahead of Opalka (which had low germination rate and very slow growth rate) all started in the same flat, etc. By the way, that Heidi has a really pretty leaf shape ... almost like flat parsley or cilantro.

Brandy Boy lags behind Bucks County, Big Boy, Better Boy, Big Beef, as well as other open pollinates.

The heathiest, most vigorous seedlings so far, bar none, are Ramapo F5, Wisconsin 55 Gold, Indian Stripe, Cherokee Green (which is blowing Aunt Ruby's away!), and Djena Girl. Planted at the same time, Potato Top, Lancaster County Pink, Stump of the World, Neves Azorian Red (pitiful), Brandywine (two commercial sources), Little Lucky, and others lag woefully behind the regular leaf seedlings.

The most vigorous potato leaf seedlings thus far are one particular Lucky Cross, one Earl's Faux (out of a half dozen that FINALLY made their emergence), a scant few Brandy Boys (out of 24), and nearly all of the Brandywine Blacks. By the way, there seems to be a difference in leaf shape between the Brandywine Blacks I got from Bully and the ones from Chuck Wyatt's Heirloom Seeds although both are definitely PL.

Another thing I noticed this year is that potato leaf seedlings seem to be way more susceptible to damping off and leaf curl than regular leaf seedlings at least comparable to the varieties I started.

PL lovers take heart though, the absolutely worst performance of all went to Mortgage Lifter (from Burpee seed pack) which did not produce one healthy looking seedling in a dozen cells (tossed'm all every one). Oh, and GJPL from Chuck Wyatt ain't anymore PL than say Super Boy, and it isn't very vigorous either. Probably old seed.

I'm gonna grow out some PLs because again I think they are very attractive and I hope they live up to their reputation for taste. But I'm gonna be very selective next year on how much space I devote to PL seedlings. This deal where I have like 300+ seedlings under lights in one bay of the garage is rediculous!

Oh, another thing ... regular leaf foliage seems way more fragrant to me so far. The Indian Stripes have got to be one of the most fragrant seedlings out there.

PV

michael johnson · April 3, 2006

Thats all very interesting info- which I enjoyed reading no end.

But- I think I will grow a few more potato leaf varieties yet and study them before I become a convert completly, the only thing I discovered about them already is that to me -potato leaves varieties seem to be a bit more tender in the stem and leaf stalks than regular leaf varieties and seem to snap off more easily if you are not carefull during plant servicing and taking out side shoots.

Regular leaf types seem to develop a more woody sturdy stem as they age towards the end of the season.

MsCowpea · April 3, 2006

Quote:

I hope they live up to their reputation for taste.

Many of my most flavorable tomatoes seem to be from potato leaf plants and many are prolific--two come to mind-Polish and Aunt Ginny.

**carolyn137** · April 3, 2006

Farkee,

Hairs won't prevent fungal spores or bacteria from attaching to their attachment sites on the leaf epidermis b/c the spores and bacteria are way smaller than hairs.

I didn't say that my PL's did not allow for foliage infections, I said that most of them are more tolerant of foliage infections.

That means that near the end of the season I can look out and see many many plants down and out with foliage disease, and most of those are RL's, but my PL's will be standing tall and vigorous.

it no doubt has to do with the spore and bacterial burden that someone has in their area, but when one sees both PL and RL plants out in a field and the RL's go down with the common foliage diseases and the infected but more tolerant PL's don't, that's good enough for me.

As I said above, not everyone will see what I have and I know that, but lots of folks do.

Tomstrees · April 3, 2006

This will be my first year growing PL
varieites, and I just can't wait.
There are literally hundreds of
PL varieites to try ; to almost
tickle anyones fancy or collection.
I'll always grow RL but def. throw in some PL's
to see what I'm gonna like.
(my thing is Yellow & Orange)
I've said it before -
Spud-Leafs are super cool.

~ Tom

lightt · April 3, 2006

At this time of the year there is absolutely NOTHING I get more satisfaction from and enjoy more than my PL seedlings.

Come harvest time, I'm totally and completely oblivious -- and really couldn't care less what the leaf type is.............

Terry Light
Oak Hill, Virginia

MsCowpea · April 3, 2006

Carolyn, thanks for the clarification concerning plant hairs and connection to fungal and bacterial infection. It has been a long time since I read something about the density of trichomes (hair-like) structures on tomato leaves and their connection to development of diseases. It must have been insect -vectored viruses that are impacted by the density of the trichomes. That would make more sense.

Tried to find what I originally read but could not --did come across this though:

"Role of the tomato plant in IPM

The surface of tomato plants has up to seven different types of glandular and non-glandular hair-like structures called trichomes. One of the more common glandular trichomes (type VI) provides the plant with a mechanical and chemical defence against pests. The density of these trichomes varies on different tomato cultivars and at different times of the year. "
from Grodan's site on pest and diseases

grunt · April 10, 2006

Papa Vic: Funny you should find PL's to be less vigourous. My experience has been almost the opposite. The most vigorous and heaviest producing plants we had last year were all potatoe leaves (Guido, San Francisco Fog, and a Scotia PL that came from RL seed). Guido yielded 45 lbs, the others over 30 lbs/plant. It may be that I let personal preferences blind me to what I don't want to see in them, but I really like the PL form and performance.

Still struggling with expressing myself adequately here, so I hope no offence taken with anything I say.
Cheers
Grunt

travis · April 10, 2006

Grunt,

My comments mostly are related to seedling vigor this year as this is the first year I've grown any potato leaf varieties to speak of.

Last year I had two German Queen plants, and they weren't anything to speak of yieldwise. They were beautiful, leafy plants with nice big blossoms, and that's about it.

This year I have several potato leaf varieties started and most of them just aren't keeping up with their regular leaf cousins. Of course I also have some regular leaf failures, too ... Marion, W. Virginia '63, Burpee Supersteak, Crimson Cushion, for example.

I also have a regular leaf Lucky Strike that's doing well alongside its PL Lucky Strike brother, and I have one lonely Early Girl PL seedling I found nestled in a commercial six pack of seedlings at the big box store this past weekend (there was some discussion at GW about the possiblility that Early Girl has at least one PL parent?).

Anyway, I have insufficient data to make any definitive comment regarding PL vs RL vigor at maturity or fruit production comparisons.

PV

GreenThumbGal_07 · April 11, 2006

Grunt,

San Francisco Fog a PL type? The SFF I've seen has always had regular leaves. Are you sure it was that variety? Where did you get it?

Thanks,

GTG

grunt · April 12, 2006

Papa Vic, I have to admit that not all PL's turn out to be the monster that ate whatever, but when you hit a vigorous one, they really show you what vigorous is. If you'd like some Guido to try, I'd be happy to send you some (even though it would likely be too late for this year).

GreenThumbGal, I stand corrected. Went back to the photos of monster alley, and the SFFog was a regular - - - just so freaking big and lush, that I remembered it as a PL. Thanks for catching that.
Cheers
Grunt

April 3, 2006	#1
michael johnson Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK. Posts: 960	Spudleaf W. I am curios, what is it about potato leaf plants that attracts so many of you to grow them almost to the exclusion of other types, ( Spudleaf W, ) in particular seems to favour them above anything else, is it the flavour, growth habit, desease resistance, etc. I might become a convert to spudleafs if the details are interesting enough.

April 3, 2006	#2
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Many folks start collections where they concentrate on certain varieties. Bill ( Spudleaf) long ago decided to collect PL varieties. Others I know collect Amish varieties, or heart shaped varieties, or varieties from a certain country, or whatever. As to PL varieties, I grow them, yes, and like them, yes, at least most of them, b'c I happen to like the leaf form visually, and for me PL varieties have shown greater tolerance to most foliage diseases and I've suggested that that could be due to possibly a thicker epidermis, without having any data whatsoever to back up that comment. But not everyone does see the same increased tolerance to foliage diseases that I see with most PL varieties. But do I see anything special re taste of PL's as opposed to RL's? No I don't, as a division based on leaf form alone. Most PL's are large pinks, I said most, , and Omar's Lebanese or Large PInk Bulgarian, for instance, both RL's, can taste much better than lots of PL pinks I've grown. So it's an individual choice as to what a person wishes to concentrate on in terms of developing a specialized collection of varieties. __________________ Carolyn

April 3, 2006	#3
MsCowpea Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: S. FLorida / Zone 10 Posts: 369	I am one of those Carolyn speaks of who doesn't see any additional disease resistance with PL at all. I have a perfect opportunity to observe both leaf types as they are planted as a second crop right along side diseased and dying plants of the first crop. In this setting disease pressures are rampant. A lot of the potato leaf plants actually get diseased rather quickly even before the others. But both regular and PL are getting foliar diseases. (I have not sprayed with a fungicide.) I remember reading somewhere that researchers were looking into, not the thickness of the leaf as Carolyn mentioned, but the HAIRS on the leaf as a possible explanation of some degree of natural resistance to foliar diseases. So you could have either regular leaf or potato leaf that had a denser plant hair characteristic that could maybe explain the difference in tolerance to disease that a person may observe in their garden. Right now I have some very healthy looking regular leaf heirlooms right next to PL plants already succumbing to disease. And of course, hybrids have no advantage when it comes to foliar diseases as has been mentioned many times before. the only link I could find discusses plant hairs in general but does have a a good definition of terms if you scroll to the bottom: http://www.backyardnature.net/hairs.htm __________________ "When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work." Carl Huffaker

April 3, 2006	#7
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Farkee, Hairs won't prevent fungal spores or bacteria from attaching to their attachment sites on the leaf epidermis b/c the spores and bacteria are way smaller than hairs. I didn't say that my PL's did not allow for foliage infections, I said that most of them are more tolerant of foliage infections. That means that near the end of the season I can look out and see many many plants down and out with foliage disease, and most of those are RL's, but my PL's will be standing tall and vigorous. it no doubt has to do with the spore and bacterial burden that someone has in their area, but when one sees both PL and RL plants out in a field and the RL's go down with the common foliage diseases and the infected but more tolerant PL's don't, that's good enough for me. As I said above, not everyone will see what I have and I know that, but lots of folks do. __________________ Carolyn

April 3, 2006	#8
Tomstrees Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NJ Bayshore Posts: 3,848	This will be my first year growing PL varieites, and I just can't wait. There are literally hundreds of PL varieites to try ; to almost tickle anyones fancy or collection. I'll always grow RL but def. throw in some PL's to see what I'm gonna like. (my thing is Yellow & Orange) I've said it before - Spud-Leafs are super cool. ~ Tom __________________ My green thumb came only as a result of the mistakes I made while learning to see things from the plant's point of view. ~ H. Fred Ale

April 3, 2006	#4
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	For me spudleaves are just a curiosity I guess because growing up I never saw any potato leaf tomatoes. Now I think potato leaf tomatoes are attractive and I'm still curious about all the variations of "potato leaf" shapes that seem to qualify. Some are singular, round shaped. Some are have longer, more slender leaves. And some even appear to have the vestiges of serrations. Then there are some leaf shapes that fall somewhere between PL and RL in my view. Like MHVF Hybrid 785 from Ferry Morse (sold commercially as Super Boy) which has a few very rounded serrations not unlike some OP varieties touted as PL. 785 produces some very vigorous seedlings, but I'm not familiar with them in the garden just yet (first year to try them). For me, all potato leaf types are curious in their attractiveness very similarly to rugose leaf types. That's the good news. Bad news is that not one single potato leaf variety that I've started is as vigorous as the top few regular leaf types I've started this year ... same cell trays, same growing media, same planting times, same heating pads, same lighting, watering, etc. The regular leaf seedlings are generally blowing their potato leaf cousins away! This is true even by types. Polish Linguisa, Polish Pastel, Heidi, and Rio Grande (supposed to be rugose) are all way ahead of Opalka (which had low germination rate and very slow growth rate) all started in the same flat, etc. By the way, that Heidi has a really pretty leaf shape ... almost like flat parsley or cilantro. Brandy Boy lags behind Bucks County, Big Boy, Better Boy, Big Beef, as well as other open pollinates. The heathiest, most vigorous seedlings so far, bar none, are Ramapo F5, Wisconsin 55 Gold, Indian Stripe, Cherokee Green (which is blowing Aunt Ruby's away!), and Djena Girl. Planted at the same time, Potato Top, Lancaster County Pink, Stump of the World, Neves Azorian Red (pitiful), Brandywine (two commercial sources), Little Lucky, and others lag woefully behind the regular leaf seedlings. The most vigorous potato leaf seedlings thus far are one particular Lucky Cross, one Earl's Faux (out of a half dozen that FINALLY made their emergence), a scant few Brandy Boys (out of 24), and nearly all of the Brandywine Blacks. By the way, there seems to be a difference in leaf shape between the Brandywine Blacks I got from Bully and the ones from Chuck Wyatt's Heirloom Seeds although both are definitely PL. Another thing I noticed this year is that potato leaf seedlings seem to be way more susceptible to damping off and leaf curl than regular leaf seedlings at least comparable to the varieties I started. PL lovers take heart though, the absolutely worst performance of all went to Mortgage Lifter (from Burpee seed pack) which did not produce one healthy looking seedling in a dozen cells (tossed'm all every one). Oh, and GJPL from Chuck Wyatt ain't anymore PL than say Super Boy, and it isn't very vigorous either. Probably old seed. I'm gonna grow out some PLs because again I think they are very attractive and I hope they live up to their reputation for taste. But I'm gonna be very selective next year on how much space I devote to PL seedlings. This deal where I have like 300+ seedlings under lights in one bay of the garage is rediculous! Oh, another thing ... regular leaf foliage seems way more fragrant to me so far. The Indian Stripes have got to be one of the most fragrant seedlings out there. PV

April 3, 2006	#9
lightt Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oak Hill, Virginia Z 6/7 Posts: 47	At this time of the year there is absolutely NOTHING I get more satisfaction from and enjoy more than my PL seedlings. Come harvest time, I'm totally and completely oblivious -- and really couldn't care less what the leaf type is............. Terry Light Oak Hill, Virginia

April 10, 2006	#11
grunt Tomatovillian™ Honoree Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wynndel, B.C., in the Kootenays just above the Idaho panhandle Posts: 35	Papa Vic: Funny you should find PL's to be less vigourous. My experience has been almost the opposite. The most vigorous and heaviest producing plants we had last year were all potatoe leaves (Guido, San Francisco Fog, and a Scotia PL that came from RL seed). Guido yielded 45 lbs, the others over 30 lbs/plant. It may be that I let personal preferences blind me to what I don't want to see in them, but I really like the PL form and performance. Still struggling with expressing myself adequately here, so I hope no offence taken with anything I say. Cheers Grunt

April 11, 2006	#13
GreenThumbGal_07 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Northern California Posts: 300	Grunt, San Francisco Fog a PL type? The SFF I've seen has always had regular leaves. Are you sure it was that variety? Where did you get it? Thanks, GTG

April 12, 2006	#14
grunt Tomatovillian™ Honoree Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wynndel, B.C., in the Kootenays just above the Idaho panhandle Posts: 35	Papa Vic, I have to admit that not all PL's turn out to be the monster that ate whatever, but when you hit a vigorous one, they really show you what vigorous is. If you'd like some Guido to try, I'd be happy to send you some (even though it would likely be too late for this year). GreenThumbGal, I stand corrected. Went back to the photos of monster alley, and the SFFog was a regular - - - just so freaking big and lush, that I remembered it as a PL. Thanks for catching that. Cheers Grunt __________________ Gonna get it RIGHT this year ... maybe.