Earl of Edgecombe variations

[Tania]

I hate to bring more controversial topics for discussion, but this is important

It appeared that I have two Earl of Edgecombes, from two different reputable sources, and they are different!

The fruits of the one look exactly like on the photograph in Carolyn's book, perfectly shaped round, not flattened. But... the plant was indeterminate dwarf (tree-type) with rugose foliage and sturdy one-stemmed growth habit. Taste is good but not outstanding. Fruits are solid, meaty, with out lots of juce and fewer seeds. Bright orange color, beautiful fruits and plants. Seeds from Jennifer/Alan Parker.

The fruits on the other one are also perfectly shaped but flattened, larger, and look more like medium size beefsteaks. The plant growth is compact indeterminate, as it should be. Taste is absolutely fabulous (given our 'bland' year), with a lovely acidic 'bite', I liked it better than the first one. Many seed locules, quite a bit of tasty juice and many more seeds compared to the 'dwarf' one. The fruits do resemble the picture they have on their website (http://store.tomatofest.com/Earl_Of_..._p/tf-0154.htm). Seeds are from Tomatofest via a tomatovillian.

I am looking for more info about plant growth habits and fruit size/shape from the folks who grew it, in the attempt to identify the correct one.

Also, does anyone knows where Gary Ibsen got his seed? His picture seems to be different from the photo in Carolyn's book.

Attached is a picture of a green fruit truss from the 'Tomatofest' strain and the plant of the 'dwarf strain'. I will try to post ripe fruit pictures for both later today.
Earl_of_Edgecombe_To9_Green.jpg Earl_of_Edgecombe3.jpg
Many thanks,
Tania

[carolyn137]

Tania, what's shown in my book is correct for Earl of Edgecombe where I also described plant habit as indeterminate but compact and foliage as RL, not rugose and fruit shape as globes, not beefsteaks as you show.

The seeds were brought back to England from New Zealand by the Earl and found their way to the HDRA, very active at that time. And my friend Ulrike Paradine, then a member of HDRA sent the seeds directly to me from HDRA in England as you can see from my seed source list at the back of the book.

How I wish everyone would state their seed sources b'c it makes tracking so much easier. To me it's more important to name seed sources than almost anything else when someone presents a variety.

Of the 9 folks who list it in the 2008 Yearbook only one describes it as a beefsteak, seed source Chuck Wyatt, and I was the source to Chuck and in earlier Yearbooks he also listed it as globe shaped but lots of his varieties got very mixed up in the few years before he passed on.

No one describes rugose foliage, dwarf plant habit.

I first listed it in the Yearbook in 1997 as I recall and if one looks in earlier Yearbooks I'm cited as the initial source of the variety by many folks but with passage of time others who got it from me listed it which is great b'c that's what should happen.

[Tania]

OK folks,

here is an update. I WAS SO WRONG regarding the taste of the 'dwarf' Earl of Edgecombe - I sliced two fruits a couple of hours ago to take the pictures and ate them with salt and some olive oil. OMG... They were so great, not too sweet and not too tart - just right! Probably the first fruit I sampled was not completely ripe.

I am not even sure which one I like better now - I will wait to get the other one to ripen a bit more on the counter, and re-try it to compare.

Here are the pictures of the ripe and sliced fruits:

1. Jennifer's 'dwarf' strain:
2008-09-14 001.JPG 2008-09-14 053.JPG Earl_of_Edgecombe1.jpg Earl_of_Edgecombe3.jpg

2. Tomatofest strain:
2008-09-14 054.JPG

[Tania]

Carolyn, does the first row of the pictures above look like the real one? (you can click on each picture to enlarge).

Sounds like the Tomatofest one is definitely wrong, as the fruit size and shape are incorrect.

I hope Jennifer can chime in - when she sent me the seed she specifically indicated that this one should be a correct one. I was just surprised to see this tree-type growth. Interestingly, Ted Amano from Ontario also sent me the seeds of Earl of Edgecombe back in 2003 I think, and I grew it side-by-side with Jennifer's and they were identical. I assumed that Ted got the seed from Jennifer, as she loves sharing seeds with her fellow canucks

Tania

[clara]

Tania,
I had Earl of Edgecombe last year (German source) and they looked exactly like your first row. Plant was indet.

Cheers, clara

[TZ-OH6]

I am growing Tomatofest EoE this year and they are true to type orange baseballs on compact indeterminant plants. This year I have seven different off-type plants out of four different Tomatofest seed packs so their quality control is a bit wanting.

[Raymondo]

My seeds came from Southern Exposure Seed Exchange and I'd describe them as per Carolyn's book. Magic colour.

[dice]

It sounds like Jennifer's has the right fruit and the wrong
plant habit, and Tomatofest's has the right plant habit
and the wrong fruit (all of them still orange when ripe,
curiously enough).

[Tania]

Originally Posted by dice

It sounds like Jennifer's has the right fruit and the wrong
plant habit, and Tomatofest's has the right plant habit
and the wrong fruit (all of them still orange when ripe,
curiously enough).

Exactly!

Now I wonder if I am not identifying the foliage/growth type correctly - I have to go back and revisit the scientific definition of 'rugose' and 'tree-type' again to make sure I am calling things by proper name.

[Tania]

Does this look like 'rugose foliage' to you?

[carolyn137]

Now I wonder if I am not identifying the foliage/growth type correctly - I have to go back and revisit the scientific definition of 'rugose' and 'tree-type' again to make sure I am calling things by proper name.

*****

Tania, your picture of the foliage doesn't look puckered/pleated enough to me to be called rugose. I know you must have grown known rugose varieties before/

And tree-type comes from the French variety Tomato de Laye ( spelling/) which was the first of the dwarf types known. And I know you've grown known dwarf tree type varieties before as well.

EOE is neither rugose nor a dwarf.

And I see the picture of EOE from TFest that is a beefsteak and your picture as well and yet one person said they got true EOE from TFest.

What this all comes down to for me is how quickly a variety can deteriorate over time. I've seen it with Box Car Willie and Opalka and REd Brandywine and many more.

After my book came out there were two commercial sources that asked me to send seeds to them of the varieties they weren't already carrying and that was Chuck Wyatt and Glenn Drowns at Sandhill.

I know that lots of varieties got mixed up with Chuck in the few years before he passed on but Glenn is almost through with listing all the varieties in my book and I've heard no complaints about any of those.

I tried so hard to do continual growouts for fresh stock but after I fell in Dec of 2004 I could no longer do that being in a walker as I still am, but I still have seeds of most of the varieties in my book and many others, some quite old, as a hedge against what I see happening more and more, and that's improper seed saving that has led to basically wrong varieties or a twist on the original.

If I can wake up seeds 22 yo as I have, all my older stocks are no older than about 10 years old and should be able to be revived.

It makes me feel very very sad to tell the truth to see what has happened to lots of varieties over time, not just the ones in my book.

[amideutch]

I too grew out EOE ,seed from tomatofest in 06. And was promptly told after posting the picture that it was not the real deal by "Eagle Eye" Carolyn. Anyway it seems that Tomatofest still doesn't have it right. Ami

[cecilsgarden1958]

I am growing EOE next season, glad to get the info. I notice ppic on T.fest wasn't correct but figured he was using generic pictures. Glad I didn't order from there.

CECIL

[dice]

[tree-type EoE]

What is the internode length relative to other indeterminates?
That would be a good test, assuming that the plants are in
comparable light conditions.

Note that short internodes is a recessive trait:

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/articl...01A0584366.php

You probably want to compare it some other tree-type dwarves
that you have growing in the same place, to take the effect
of different climate and light levels out of the comparison
(internode lengths will vary a little with light levels, even
between plants of the same cultivar from the same parent
plant).

[Tania]

Carolyn,

You are probably very correct about saying it does not look like true 'rugose' to you - as it is different from other 'rugose' dwarves that I grew. The leaves are much more narrow and not that 'pleated', but they are sure very thick compared to 'regular' foliage. The three plants I had all grew up to 4' tall in a container, and the stem was not branching and was not growing many 'suckers'. That's why I am calling it 'tree-type', but I may not be identifying it correctly.

I grew it in 2005 (when it was killed by blight before any fruit ripened), and I remember that the seedlings were very similar - sturdy, more stout, same narrowish but think foliage...

dice,

I can certainly measure that but I do not have indet plants growing in the same condition (pot and this particular spot on the deck can only hold 1 pot...)

Carolyn,

100% agree with you about the quick deterioration of the varieties. Unfortunately, in some cases we may not even know we have a 'faux', as supplied descriptions (if any) may not have been sufficient to check the authenticity .

it is also about some of us (especially the ones growing lots of varieties) not being careful about labeling fruit before bringing them to the kitchen and savings seeds. It may also be about lots of seed trading in a hurry when a stray seed may get in or seed pack can get wrongly labeled... When saving seeds from multiple varieties, there is LOTS of opportunities to screw up, if we are not careful.

I was tempted at least twice in the last two weeks to post at Seed Exchange forum to share my personal observations about the seed purity, and speculate about why there may be issues there and ask the folks to be very careful - and if unsure, do not pass on the seed! (or, at least, indicate that you are not sure and what was your seeds source so these 'mysteries' could have a better chance to be resolved).

Then I thought I may sound like I am preaching or lecturing... so I did not post.

It also scares me to think about what happens if no one picks up after Glenn. Some varieties may be lost for good...